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  #76   ^
Old Fri, Mar-13-09, 22:32
kallyn's Avatar
kallyn kallyn is offline
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Posts: 1,998
 
Plan: life without bread
Stats: 150/130/130 Female 5 feet 7 inches
BF:
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Location: Pennsylvania
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capmikee
The WAPF article I just read said that cod liver oil didn't have much K2. Weston A. Price combined cod liver oil with high K2 butter oil, so that suggests to me that Cannell was right, at least as far as to say modern cod liver oil should not be taken on its own.


I used to participate in the nutrition forums at mothering.com and there are lots of WAPFers there. Cod liver oil would come up a lot. Anyway, one of the things that got brought up was that Weston Price himself advised strongly against taking cod liver oil without the high K2 butter oil. He said it would start to actually cause ill health if taken without the high K2 butter oil. I think he wrote about it in some of his correspondence (he wrote letters to his nieces and nephews).

Ah, I just googled a bit and found this: http://www.ppnf.org/catalog/ppnf/Ar...PriceLetter.htm doesn't mention the butter oil, but does touch on toxicity of CLO all by itself

Quote:
Cod-liver oil can be given in moderate doses without injury and to great advantage. Seldom, however, should a child be given more than a teaspoonful a day for extended periods, because of toxic effects that often develop.
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  #77   ^
Old Sat, Mar-14-09, 10:04
Jayppers's Avatar
Jayppers Jayppers is offline
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Posts: 651
 
Plan: Mostly carnivory
Stats: 145/145/145 Male 5'11'' (feet and inches)
BF:
Progress: -20%
Location: Ohio
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Thanks for providing that, Kallyn.

I can see the reasoning for this precaution. The comments by the foundation indicate that the letter was written early in his career, before coming across groups who were eating high meat & fat diets, which explains the over-emphasis on grain foods recommendations.

I'd like to emphasize this excerpt from the WAPF recent response to the Cannell/D-camp recommendation to avoid cod liver oil (and indirectly all foods high in pre-formed retinols):

http://tinyurl.com/b6bqpr

Quote:
The statement that preformed vitamin A is unnatural is ludicrous in the light of what we know about traditional diets. The chief source of calories in the traditional Inuit diet, for example, is seal oil, which Weston Price found to be higher in vitamin A than cod liver oil. Fish heads, extremely rich in vitamin A, are a staple in the Japanese diet. Many cultures consume liver, often in high amounts—yet the authors of the review paper imply that liver is toxic. Tell that to the Frenchman enjoying his foie gras, the Englishman consuming liver and onions, or the South Sea Islander who submits to great danger to obtain shark liver for men and women, in order to ensure healthy children. The truth is that pre-formed vitamin A is more plentiful in traditional foods than vitamin D, yet politically correct nutrition insists that we must obtain vitamin A through the laborious process of converting carotenes.
Price documented that the Inuit were able to produce excellent offspring evidenced by their wide facial structure and excellent dental arches and sturdy healthy bodies. Consumption of seal oil on probably a daily basis with all the rich pre-formed retinols (vitamin A), it seems logical to conclude, played a role in this success and did not play a detrimental role in the presence of other synergistic elements found in the whole foods they consumed.

I consume small portions of beef liver on an almost daily basis, and I always find that I feel better by doing so, almost immediately. I also don't appear to be experiencing signs or symptoms of vitamin A toxicity, as I also ensure I'm obtaining adequate minerals and the other synergistic fat-soluble activators D & K2.

I realize I'm coming off as a bit of a WAPF-fanatic, but the principles they put forth make a lot of sense to me, and put into practice have only helped to increase my level of health.

I'm more inclined to believe the accounts of Price on real living people living off traditional diets than the studies presented by Cannell and the D-camp that rely mostly on studies using isolated nutrients (at times synthetic) and experiments that by their very nature do not take into account the full complexity of the human body.

As a personal testament, I can confidently say that I observe expression of VDR activation with adequate vitamin D supplementation even when I continue to consume a diet fortified with nutrient-dense foods like liver and many egg yolks that also contain higher levels of pre-formed vitamin A. This again makes it difficult for me to believe the claims by the D-camp that pre-formed vitamin A intake directly antagonizes the action of vitamin D in the body. Again, the explanations provided by the WAPF regarding nutrient synergy win out for me again, unbiasedly based on actual personal observation.

Kind regards,
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  #78   ^
Old Sat, Mar-14-09, 11:12
capmikee's Avatar
capmikee capmikee is offline
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Posts: 5,160
 
Plan: Weston A. Price, GFCF
Stats: 165/133/132 Male 5' 5"
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Progress: 97%
Location: Philadelphia
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Someone recently pointed me to a college thesis paper about J.I. Rodale and Albert Howard. Howard was the originator of the term "organic farming," and Rodale popularized it. But the paper points out a difference between the two: Howard didn't feel the need to prove scientifically that "nature's way" was the best; it just made sense because that's how things have worked for millions of years. Rodale, on the other hand, made it his life's work to promote research that isolated nutrients from organic foods, showing a quantitative difference from conventional foods.

Howard was fundamentally opposed to Justus von Liebig, originator of the "NPK" theory of fertilizer and the "fats/carbs/protein" theory of nutrition. Howard's view was that our health depends on the health of the environment - plants, animals, and soil - a qualitative vision that rejected chemical analysis. Although Rodale was opposed to the chemical fertilizers and pesticides, he accepted Liebig's basic formula and added a laundry list of new chemicals to it.

Last edited by capmikee : Sat, Mar-14-09 at 11:23.
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  #79   ^
Old Sat, Mar-14-09, 12:38
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Posts: 45,368
 
Plan: Paleo 99.5%
Stats: 210/170/160 Female 67.5"
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Location: San Diego, CA
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I can't quite understand why you'd criticize Dr. Cannell for his weird evolutionary view of human nutrition (which no argument from me on that) and not recognize that WAPF espousing the use of grains is pretty anti-evolutionary as well.
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  #80   ^
Old Sat, Mar-14-09, 20:29
Jayppers's Avatar
Jayppers Jayppers is offline
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Posts: 651
 
Plan: Mostly carnivory
Stats: 145/145/145 Male 5'11'' (feet and inches)
BF:
Progress: -20%
Location: Ohio
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I disagreed about it more because he appears to advocate a more vegetarian-based diet versus one based on meats, fats, and general low-carb. fare. I didn't feel it was necessary to bring up my disagreement regarding properly prepared grain consumption as endorsed by the WAPF because it was a side-issue.

I do recognize the WAPF endorsement of properly prepared grain consumption, and personally do not agree with that, and do not adopt that as part of my own personal dietary. I believe though that comparing Cannell's position on evolutionary nutrition for the human dietary with that which WAPF endorses is not a very close one-to-one match. I agree with WAPF principals of diet to a much greater extent than what Cannell seems to believe in.

So, for the record, no, I don't agree with all tenants of the WAPF dietary recommendations. The grain thing is the one exception to my previous statement indicating that the dietary principals set forth by the WAPF ring true for me in my personal experience. Well, I guess the dairy thing is another. But the fat, meat, organ, and nutrient-dense parts of OK by me.
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  #81   ^
Old Mon, Mar-16-09, 08:08
Hutchinson's Avatar
Hutchinson Hutchinson is offline
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Posts: 2,886
 
Plan: Dr Dahlqvist's
Stats: 205/152/160 Male 69
BF:
Progress: 118%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayppers
I believe though that comparing Cannell's position on evolutionary nutrition for the human dietary
It would be helpful if you could provide a link to Dr Cannell/s position on evolutionary nutrition?

I would also like some corroboration of the claim
I can confidently say that I observe expression of VDR activation with adequate vitamin D supplementation
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