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  #31   ^
Old Tue, Jul-19-16, 10:57
thud123's Avatar
thud123 thud123 is offline
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Posts: 5,246
 
Plan: ~25NC/IF
Stats: 342.2/231/000 Male 182cm
BF:
Progress: 32%
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Damn interesting guys! I'm reading in awe of your analytical, skeptical and experimental natures. I'm just fooling with this toy but you guys are really digging in! Bravo and Thank You!
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  #32   ^
Old Wed, Jul-20-16, 06:13
inflammabl's Avatar
inflammabl inflammabl is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,087
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 296/220/205 Male 71 inches
BF:25%?
Progress: 84%
Location: GSP and FLL
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Quote:
What I have wanted to understand myself for some time is how blood ketone levels respond to different levels of dietary carbohydrate and what is required to get blood ketone levels into the range of 1.25 to 2.75 mmol/L.

That vagueness of P&V about the x-axis is what drove me to try to figure out what the y-axix might be.

P&V got BHOB up to 1.26 by testing on active bicyclists peddling 200 miles a day (table 2 see link). That's more effort than I am willing to go through and if is still just a calorie flux, which the NuSi study finds, then there really is no point. I'm much more interested in the appetite suppression aspects.


That's awesome. That brings home the point that ketones are just an intermediated between fatty acids and CO2/H2O and a clue on which organs are making them and which ones are taking them.

In the morning, they start low. They were taken away at night. By what? Probably every organ but the I would guess the brain in particular. Maybe the brain has a hard time with AcAc and BHOB so that's an indication that it's just everything. During the morning they shift down suddenly... why? Dunno. They stay remarkably steady until 5pm. What the heck happened at 4:30 to cause them to jump like that? Eating? Eating fat I would guess which puts to the lie that ketones are an indication of body fat utilization (we hope that's what it means but can never know it). This indicates that the fat was metabolized by a particular organ and not the muscles as I don't think you suddenly ran a 5k after dinner. My guess is it was the liver. They then gradually climb through bedtime maybe because you were sedentary (?) then fall again at night.

If that speculation about the liver is correct then you may have been "fat starved" before dinner and your body was up-regulating the release of FFA's during the day until your blood stream was saturated by dietary fat at dinner. This information on a buffering mechanism is important, I think.

These times are just as if not more important to knowing what's going on as the absolute values themselves. This is great stuff.

Watching how calories move through the body is fascinating to me, more so in the form of ketones. One interesting thing is that I would guess your blood sugar was on the low side and constant. That means all your organs had normal amounts of blood sugar available to them in addition to fat and ketones.

BTW - If you haven't already there is a paper out there on insulin index which I think you would enjoy. Fung references it here and I believe it is behind a paywall here .
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  #33   ^
Old Wed, Jul-20-16, 07:05
Bintang's Avatar
Bintang Bintang is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 258
 
Plan: MyOwn:CHO<90g/d
Stats: 207/149/150 Male 169 cm
BF:40%/17%/18%
Progress: 102%
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inflammabl
What the heck happened at 4:30 to cause them to jump like that? Eating? Eating fat I would guess which puts to the lie that ketones are an indication of body fat utilization (we hope that's what it means but can never know it)

I think it is caused by consumption of medium chain triglycerides (MCT).
Most days around 14:30 to 15:30 I consume a snack consisting of a small amount of fruit (~40g) together with around 50g of coconut cream and/or heavy dairy cream, which are rich sources of MCT.

Here is a quote about MCT from P&V's book, The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance:

"MCT have three very important distinctions:
First, they are absorbed much more quickly [than long chain triglycerides (LCT)]
Second, MCT don't get stored in fat cells, so once consumed they need to be processed immediately.
Third, MCT are promptly oxidised in muscle cells or used by the liver to make ketones.
Thus depending on the dose, ingestion of MCTs can result in rapid elevation of ketones.
Natural sources of MCT are dairy fats (butter and cream) and coconut oil, so you may find your ketones go up more after ingestion of these foods.
About 10-15% of the fat in butter consists of MCTs and about two-thirds of the fat in coconut oil is MCT.
"
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  #34   ^
Old Wed, Jul-20-16, 15:39
inflammabl's Avatar
inflammabl inflammabl is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,087
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 296/220/205 Male 71 inches
BF:25%?
Progress: 84%
Location: GSP and FLL
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Okay so it was dietary fat. So in the above link where the owner of ketonix wants to increase his blood Acetone, this device would drive him to eat MCT's. Good. That a nice, neat, data driven use of cause and effect.

"Second, MCT don't get stored in fat cells," I'm not so sure about that. MCT's would probably be treated like any other dietary triglyceride and be converted to monoglyceride and free fatty acid. Now I could certainly see that short chain FFA's would be used quickly but they would also be able to pass into fat cells and be reassembled into longer chain triglycerides.
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  #35   ^
Old Thu, Jul-21-16, 06:15
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 3,107
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Correct, MCTs have the propensity (by structure) to be consumed quickly for energy requirements, if there are energy requirements at that time.
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  #36   ^
Old Thu, Jul-21-16, 08:22
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 13,740
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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Some mct's can be stored directly, some are elongated and then stored. Or acetyl-CoA from beta oxidation of medium chain fatty acids can be used to synthesize new fatty acids, just as acetyl-CoA produced from carbohydrate or amino acids can.

I think the lower initial morning ketones might be due to the decrease in metabolism during sleep--glucose and ketones are needed then mostly for the brain. Once you wake up, there's some competition. It might be like boiling a frog--as long as the increase in metabolism is relatively mild, from sleep to moderate activity, there's just a mild decrease in ketones early on. A big fatty meal will increase fat, so increase ketone production, as would a large increase in lipolysis from some sort of more strenuous activity. But a mild increase in energy expenditure just causes a mild, less stressed response. Also, after having a major meal at night, and then an inactive sleep, the liver might have been able to play catch-up, bringing liver glycogen up enough so that the increase in metabolic rate between sleep and the early morning could more easily be made up for by a slight increase in glucose production by the liver.
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  #37   ^
Old Thu, Jul-21-16, 08:36
thud123's Avatar
thud123 thud123 is offline
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Posts: 5,246
 
Plan: ~25NC/IF
Stats: 342.2/231/000 Male 182cm
BF:
Progress: 32%
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Perhaps I'll do a "water" fasting experiment where I will ingest a certain amount of coconut oil each day at the same time and take Ketonix readings just prior and exactly time X afterwards without any significant physical activity surrounding the readings (I'm thinking at work)

That would be kind of fun, interesting and Tasty! I wonder what the amount should be in grams? I could prep that and have ready to go.
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  #38   ^
Old Thu, Jul-21-16, 08:40
kirkor kirkor is offline
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Posts: 188
 
Plan: IF dairy-free keto ish
Stats: 175/175/170 Male 71
BF:
Progress: 0%
Location: San Diego, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GRB5111
I read a discussion in another blog topic regarding ketosis and breathalyzers. The concern was that in ketosis, the breathalyzer reading could be unusually high, and if coupled with one or two drinks, which normally would keep one under the legal limit, would result in a high reading putting one in a DUI situation. I think it bears testing . . .


Maybe some smart DUI attorneys will figure out how to use keto as a defense for getting clients *out* of charges!
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  #39   ^
Old Thu, Jul-21-16, 10:40
Bintang's Avatar
Bintang Bintang is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 258
 
Plan: MyOwn:CHO<90g/d
Stats: 207/149/150 Male 169 cm
BF:40%/17%/18%
Progress: 102%
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
I think the lower initial morning ketones might be due to the decrease in metabolism during sleep--glucose and ketones are needed then mostly for the brain.
Here are some more ketonix results for the ‘theorists’ here to ponder.
I switched to an ‘extreme’ ketogenic diet (EK) to see how the ketonix measurements would compare with those taken during my normal low carb diet (NLC). The following chart shows ketonix measurements starting on 17 July until 21 July. During the 3 day period 17 to 19 July I was eating my NLC diet but starting at 10:00 am on 20July I switched to a EK diet. The average macros during these respective periods are shown in the tables at the bottom of the chart. Energy intake was fairly constant throughout (~2220 kcals) but total carbs were reduced from 71 to 28 g/day and protein reduced from 90 to 56 g/d.


Some observations:
1) By the end of the first day of the EK diet the ketonix readings are at a higher level than on any of the previous days of NLC diet.
2) The ketonix readings remain elevated the next morning unlike the previous days of NLC diet.
3) During the whole of the second day of EK diet the ketonix readings continue to remain elevated and do not show as much daily variation.
4) On the second day of EK diet there is no apparent response to the afternoon MCT fat consumption.

The following charts show the same data plotted on a 6am to 12am daily cycle. The red & blue lines are an average of the 3-day NLC diet period.

NB: as per previous posts the blood ketones in the above chart are estimated from the ketonix values using correlations.

Last edited by Bintang : Thu, Jul-21-16 at 10:48.
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  #40   ^
Old Thu, Jul-21-16, 11:00
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 13,740
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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I'm not surprised at the MCT's not showing much with the background of a more ketogenic diet. I thought that might be the case earlier, but I didn't say anything earlier. Maybe you'll accept a retroactive prediction?

Probably not enough days of data here--but more level ketones suggests to me that the fluctuation over the course of the day with the "normal" low carb diet is likely due to the fluctuations in gluconeogenesis/liver glycogen caused by meals.
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  #41   ^
Old Thu, Jul-21-16, 11:06
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 13,740
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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Fasting free fatty acids are likely higher as well--so dietary fat is less likely to make enough of a difference to increase ketones, fat cell lipolysis could decrease after a meal and be replaced by absorption of fat from the gut, free fatty acid availability might be the proximate cause, but downstream of the effects of glucose.
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  #42   ^
Old Thu, Jul-21-16, 11:21
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 3,107
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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The graph for the EK diet shows that your metabolism is in full fat burning mode. Given the reduction of carbs and protein, that's what is supposed to happen. Thanks again, this is very informative. The fact that ketones are more elevated and stay elevated consistently is to be expected with greatly reduced toggling between glycogen and fat, and it's nice to see how much control one has over the fat burning process by simple variable adjustments.
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  #43   ^
Old Thu, Jul-21-16, 16:15
inflammabl's Avatar
inflammabl inflammabl is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,087
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 296/220/205 Male 71 inches
BF:25%?
Progress: 84%
Location: GSP and FLL
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The increase in ketones after a meal of MCT might be indirect. That is the dietary fat goes into the energy pool.... reduces the bodies consumption of ketones... more AcAc and BHOB is converted into Acetone.... and acetone increases because it stops being metabolized when we eat more fat than our body is asking for.

So ketonix measures just one ketone, Acetone, a ketone that is not made directly from fat. Second ketones are a "difference" variable, that is a quantity that is the difference between two different processes, generation and consumption of ketones. So it's hard to say why, exactly, there are more or less.
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  #44   ^
Old Thu, Jul-21-16, 23:12
Bintang's Avatar
Bintang Bintang is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 258
 
Plan: MyOwn:CHO<90g/d
Stats: 207/149/150 Male 169 cm
BF:40%/17%/18%
Progress: 102%
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
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Some Comments about pursuing the holy grail of ‘Optimal Ketosis’
When I first got my ketonix I thought like other people that it would not be much more useful than a toy. Maybe that's true in terms of absolute values measured but it does seem to produce some interesting trend results when used in a planned and systematic way.
Something I am now trying to get to grips with is what 'level of ketosis' to aim for in maintenance mode, which in turn determines what macro levels to maintain for the long term.
When I started on low carb about 14 months ago I didn't do it the typical Atkins way, i.e. by extreme reduction of carbs to around 20g per day. My approach was much more gradual as shown in the following chart.


NB: In the above chart CHO is total carbohydrate. It is not net carbohydrate.

In fact I began by only reducing carbs to ~120 g/d and on a daily basis I never went below 50g/day until the last two days of ketonix experimentation. Nonetheless my weight loss has been very successful. I reached my goal weight of 150lbs after about 12 months and have been in maintenance for about the last 2 months.

Over time though my diet has gradually become more 'ketogenic' as fat intake has increased in response to the reduction of 'on-board' fat stores and an increasing appetite. I have been careful to satisfy the increasing appetite primarily with extra fat and hence the concomitant reduction of carbohydrate.

So for me, personally, the pursuit of the holy grail of ‘optimal ketosis’ (which seems to be a typical obsession of many blog posts, (for example see What is Nutritional Ketosis and Jimmy Moore's n=1 Experiments: Nutritional Ketosis) was not necessary to achieve a desired 57lb weight loss. Personally I am very glad this is the case because I find that once I go below ~60g carbohydrate per day the constraints it imposes on food choices makes my daily menus less enjoyable.

But everyone is different and perhaps for some other people there is simply no other way to 'kick start' weight loss without an extreme reduction of carbohydrate intake and the pursuit of 'optimal ketosis'.

Last edited by Bintang : Thu, Jul-21-16 at 23:30.
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  #45   ^
Old Thu, Jul-21-16, 23:53
inflammabl's Avatar
inflammabl inflammabl is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,087
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 296/220/205 Male 71 inches
BF:25%?
Progress: 84%
Location: GSP and FLL
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There are all kinds of lowish carb diets that work for many, but not all, people. I'm very happy to see someone putting a bit of science to their diet. I tried the blood meter but the results were so variable that conclusions were difficult. A higher sampling rate was required and I hated paying for the strips when I wasn't even sure they were going to tell me anything. I think you are on a good track with the ketonix. Once you get into maintenance more it would be interesting to see if your weight fluctuates up or down depending on acetone level. I'd guess it makes no difference but that's just an uneducated guess.
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