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  #286   ^
Old Wed, Jan-30-19, 07:31
cotonpal's Avatar
cotonpal cotonpal is online now
Posts: 4,576
 
Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/128/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 106%
Location: Vermont
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I have drifted into less than 10 gms of total carbs per day almost by accident. I ran out of vegetables and because the sidewalks were icy and the air was cold I didn't want to walk to my food coop so I decided to just go with what I had, ground beef and sunflower seeds. I almost immediately noticed a drop in appetite, something that has been rather elusive for me. I have decided to stick with this very low carb almost carnivore diet for the foreseeable future just to see how it goes. I listened to the dietdoctor podcast with Amber O'Hearn which helped convince me to stick with it.
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  #287   ^
Old Wed, Jan-30-19, 07:53
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Posts: 11,959
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/123/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 139%
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cotonpal
I almost immediately noticed a drop in appetite, something that has been rather elusive for me.


This is an incredible element that should be better known!

From decades of cat rescue, I noticed that cats ate less of their canned food than their dry food, and I decided it was because the canned food had more nutrition. The cats' "hungry switch" turned off faster. Which made great sense for an obligate carnivore.

I think it might be the same way with many people

I have noticed that my body responds to carbs with Tanker Car of Insulin. Lowering carbs worked: now I am discovering that greatly lowering carbs works greatly.
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  #288   ^
Old Wed, Jan-30-19, 08:02
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is online now
Posts: 3,120
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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I've noticed the same dynamic when I eat very few veggies and more protein with fat (beef, pork, salmon, etc.). I'm not opposed to being primarily or predominantly a carnivore, because that seems where I am at this time. For some it works well.
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  #289   ^
Old Wed, Jan-30-19, 08:28
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Posts: 11,959
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/123/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 139%
Location: USA
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My current diet shocks both ends of the food spectrum

The Paleo crowd are death on dairy. And considerable numbers of people do not get along with dairy. But I do. A misdiagnosis resulted in me not eating dairy for nearly a decade. When I started low carb, I tentatively added it back in. No difference at all: except it helps me eat better. I used to love sandwiches: now I love "sandwich guts." It was never about the bread.

I got for high fat, cultured, and pastured when I can get it. Goat cheese as all pastured and makes an excellent "meat sauce." It's an animal food which agrees with me, and that's my bottom line these days.

Now, the traditional nutritional stance is that vegetables are the gold standard, and need to form the base of one's plate. I am eliminating vegetables entirely. Pickles, olives, and avocados are the only plant foods in my current plan, and these are botanic fruits; not vegetables.

Entirely too much weight was given the presence of nutrients in vegetables. When in fact, much of this is not bio-available, as Dr. Georgia Ede has written about extensively. And if they make me hungry instead of satiatied... what good are they?
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  #290   ^
Old Thu, Jan-31-19, 03:50
Canari Canari is offline
New Member
Posts: 17
 
Plan: Carnivore 95%
Stats: 100/100/100 Female 165cm
BF:
Progress:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBear
I need a Zero Balncing appointment. That does wonders for me.

And you make very good points. There is no ONE answer, since bodies vary as much as the environments they have adapted to. N = 1 is how we have to do it.

lol I don't understand what you meant!

There is no one answer and at the same time there is! We are all humans with common points, but those points divide into many differences... which is the difficult part.

I am not sure I mentioned the usefulness of reducing vitamin A, being now found to be a poison that the liver stocks up until it cannot any more. The body uses it in small quantity, but it quickly turns into a toxin if we get too much.

When we go zc, we stop building up more vitamin A.

Mainly by stopping carotenes intake, as we stop the fruits and veggies that are high in it.

I have always wanted non orange carrots and non red tomatoes, as proven by my garden choices! Carrots used to be white and they were selected over time to be orange...

When an elimination diet works, the problem is to know what worked and what can be reintroduced.

So if you are close to zc, it is possible to use white rice and white beans without the skin. I even grow white lima beans! The skin is easy to remove because they are big.


Sooooo for now my strategy is:
- carnivore
+ detox lymphatic system with ayurvedic tips and herbs (being gluten intolerant was the main proof of having a clogged LS)
+ stay away from fibers
+ limit vitamin A (liver and eggs and too yellow dairies: goat butter is white! Goat cheese is white too!)
and I will conclude what sort of plant matters I can use.

I have still used avocados (I grow them, so...), coconut and cacao fat, olive oil, macadamia nuts, hemp seeds.
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  #291   ^
Old Thu, Jan-31-19, 03:54
Canari Canari is offline
New Member
Posts: 17
 
Plan: Carnivore 95%
Stats: 100/100/100 Female 165cm
BF:
Progress:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cotonpal
what I had, ground beef and sunflower seeds.


Why sunflower? They are very rich in omega 6 and so the balance with omega 3 is not good. I have decided to only use hemp seeds, as their ratio is almost perfect. As a nut, macadamia fats seem ok too, very moninsaturated.

Edit:
To not add more post... ok I understand, it was not meant as critic but as interest in understanding your choice! Thanks for the answer just below!

Last edited by Canari : Thu, Jan-31-19 at 12:46.
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  #292   ^
Old Thu, Jan-31-19, 05:35
cotonpal's Avatar
cotonpal cotonpal is online now
Posts: 4,576
 
Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/128/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 106%
Location: Vermont
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I started eating sunflower seeds many years ago because of the vitamin e content. I know all about omega 6 and omega 3. I don't eat that many sunflower seeds. My balance is just fine. Also I ran out of vegetables and grass fed ground beef and sunflower seeds were what I had in my house at the time so I decided to stick with that for the time being. I've given up trying to be perfect about everything all of the time. It's been about 15 years since I have used any polyunsaturated vegetable oils. I don't go out to eat where those are the only oils that are used and I eat a handful of sunflower seeds a day so I figure I'm doing OK.

I will add that I used to eat macadamia nuts but the price has soared well beyond my budget and I tend not to try new foods since I have so many food sensitivities that I like to stick with what I know is safe for my system. I think I tried hemp many years ago and it didn't go down well. We each do the best we can given our circumstances and needs.

Last edited by cotonpal : Thu, Jan-31-19 at 05:43.
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  #293   ^
Old Tue, Mar-12-19, 07:30
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,211
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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Chris Kresser has written a thorough review of the Carnivore Diet including possible nutrient deficiencies. A different viewpoint since this is the war zone.
https://chriskresser.com/the-carniv...-really-healthy
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  #294   ^
Old Tue, Mar-12-19, 08:05
cotonpal's Avatar
cotonpal cotonpal is online now
Posts: 4,576
 
Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/128/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 106%
Location: Vermont
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
Chris Kresser has written a thorough review of the Carnivore Diet including possible nutrient deficiencies. A different viewpoint since this is the war zone.
https://chriskresser.com/the-carniv...-really-healthy


I read this this morning. I pay attention to my micronutrients. Thats is one of the main reasons I track on Cronometer. Just the deficiencies Chris Kresser pinpoints are the reason I haven't gone full carnivore (plus I enjoy my daily veggies). I am sure we do not know everything we need to know about micronutrients, especially in a low carb diet, so I figure a few veggies to provide the nutrients not abundant in meats and fish is a good idea. Clearly there is no one perfect diet for everyone on the planet. We just have to do the best we can with the knowledge we have and not get too attached to our particular view of things for surely we are all wrong about somethings.
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  #295   ^
Old Tue, Mar-12-19, 09:28
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 13,756
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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I use macadamia nuts to justify buying pecans and brazil nuts, still kind of pricey these days, but half as expensive as the macadamia.

My sister and brother in law have gone carnivore, after some years vegetarian, and then a few years vegan. I hadn't realized it had been that long until she posted it on facebook. Everything she posted about diet while vegetarian/vegan was about animal welfare, now that she's carnivore, it's 50/50 animal welfare through giving animals a more traditional life before harvest--grass fed, free range etc. and various posts about the health benefits of going carnivore...

Dr. Fung has an old video looking at calcium intake recommendations. There are groups that do fine on a few hundred milligrams of calcium a day, eat a couple of pounds of sirloin steak, it's not too hard to hit that. Then there's people in the states who are being urged to eat calcium daily in gram+ amounts that can scarcely be reached without resorting either to dairy, or to foods like spinach or kale that we're probably going to have poor absorption from anyways.

That same sirloin gives only 12 percent of the daily requirement for vitamin k. How was the daily requirement for vitamin k established?

Quote:
Insufficient data were available to establish an EAR for vitamin K, so the FNB established AIs for all ages that are based on vitamin K intakes in healthy population groups [3]. Table 1 lists the current AIs for vitamin K in micrograms (mcg). The AIs for infants are based on the calculated mean vitamin K intake of healthy breastfed infants and the assumption that infants receive prophylactic vitamin K at birth as recommended by American and Canadian pediatric societies [3].


We made it up. No differentiation is made between vitamin k1 and k2. I'm not against this, after all the way we discover deficiencies is when large groups of people started eating new diets that happen to be low in previously unknown required nutrients.

But you can see the obvious problem in claiming that a carnivorous diet must be low in a particular nutrient, when the requirement for the nutrient is made up from the average content of the nutrient in a mixed diet. We can argue that the Inuit collected lichen and berries, as if all Inuit, over the broad range of terrains they lived in, ate the exact same diet.

The argument is sometimes made that a meat based diet will give better delivery of nutrients, lower requirements for some nutrients, this is probably true. I think a stronger argument is this one, that DRI's are largely made up. For vitamin c for instance--actual established requirement is roughly 10 mg a day, not that hard to get from a carnivorous diet. This keeps getting upped, based on little more than the speculation that oxidation is a major driver of disease and aging, so more of any antioxidant must be better.

I'm not quite carnivorous, but most of my non-animal foods are things like nuts, not horribly high in vitamin c. I take vitamin c because it's included in a supposedly anti-macular degeneration formula that also includes lutein and vitamin e along with another couple of nutrients, but also because while I don't really think it's necessary on a carnivorous diet, I think the evidence that it's harmful is pretty weak, too.
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  #296   ^
Old Tue, Mar-12-19, 09:54
cotonpal's Avatar
cotonpal cotonpal is online now
Posts: 4,576
 
Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/128/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 106%
Location: Vermont
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Teaser - I think that when it comes to micronutrients on a low carb or carnivorous diet we simply do not know. I'm just hedging my bets by having a salad every day and a handful of sunflower seeds.
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  #297   ^
Old Tue, Mar-12-19, 11:11
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 13,756
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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I agree that's a reasonable course to take. I do hedge with vitamins myself. But with this sort of uncertainty, I think it makes sense to look at it from an individual risk/benefit perspective. With somebody like Mikhaila Peterson for instance, risk of an unknown deficiency might be outweighed by more immediate concerns of arthritic pain and depression. Or Andrew Scarborough--not the best example here because he does target nutrient richness within the carnivore diet--but when a diet is that level of ketogenic, upping protein a little at expense of carbohydrate makes a certain sense.

I seem to do better without vegetables--but when I push the carbs very low in spite of vegetable content of the diet, the vegetables don't interfere with the benefits of a more deeply ketogenic diet in any obvious way, it's just that it's easier to count carbs very low when the sources in the diet are minimized.

When it comes to just a low carb diet, I think I'm willing to go out a little further on the limb and say that it's potentially the most nutrient rich diet in the world, not much left out in the dark but grains and potato, not the most nutrient-dense foods in the world to start with.
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  #298   ^
Old Tue, Mar-12-19, 12:44
cotonpal's Avatar
cotonpal cotonpal is online now
Posts: 4,576
 
Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/128/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 106%
Location: Vermont
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I agree, it's a risk benefit thing. Amber O'Hearn is another person for whom the benefits of carnivore seem to outweigh any potential deficiencies. That's why we're all a bunch of n=1's. There are some underlying physiological constants but the details can very from person to person.
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  #299   ^
Old Tue, Mar-12-19, 21:09
Pashta's Avatar
Pashta Pashta is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 47
 
Plan: Carnivore-ish
Stats: 265/255/190 Female 5'5"
BF:
Progress: 13%
Location: Montana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
Chris Kresser has written a thorough review of the Carnivore Diet including possible nutrient deficiencies. A different viewpoint since this is the war zone.
https://chriskresser.com/the-carniv...-really-healthy


There aren't any nutrient deficiencies. None. Zero. Seriously.

Proof:

https://youtu.be/gT7u2GlEfxs?t=712
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  #300   ^
Old Wed, Mar-13-19, 03:37
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Posts: 11,959
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/123/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 139%
Location: USA
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The nutritional requirement for carbohydrates is zero.

I don't know much about the people who went all meat and had problems. Since it is important, as noted would unbalance one's electrolytes if done improperly, this might be a complicating factor in the side effects I hear about.

Sodium is easy, potassium is high in meat and avocado, and I have upped my chelated magnesium recently with good results.
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