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  #31   ^
Old Wed, Feb-21-24, 08:31
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,044
 
Plan: Very LC, Higher Protein
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Trying to remember the last time I ate 5 pounds of cauliflower at one meal. Oh yeah, never. Food and the way one reacts to food is so individualized. SPC may work for some, but not even close for me if I want to stay satiated with healthy foods. The other issue is that it’s fine to label a food’s contents of nutrients, but the key is to label nutrient availability for humans. This is where the measurements fall apart. While there are readily available sources for food nutrient and micronutrient profiles, there are few studies showing actual absorption rates of nutrient quantities in humans. The largest conflation of nutrient availability is between plant and animal protein as an example. This applies to all food nutrients. We don’t know what we can’t measure.
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  #32   ^
Old Wed, Feb-21-24, 08:35
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,437
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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BW,
Marty Kendall's programs support some 30 diets, including Carnivore. Nutrient satiety is also considered as part of HAVA's satiety score. As long as you can meet your goals, it is all good.
If you drop plants and keep seafood and dairy, you can still get a fairly nutritious outcome. https://optimisingnutrition.com/car...ased-nutrients/

Rob, I was trying to find a calorie equal amount, 5 pounds was close .
Point taken on nutrient availability, but it’s what we've got now.

Last edited by JEY100 : Wed, Feb-21-24 at 08:45.
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  #33   ^
Old Wed, Feb-21-24, 11:55
BawdyWench's Avatar
BawdyWench BawdyWench is offline
Posts: 8,793
 
Plan: Carnivore
Stats: 212/179/160 Female 5'6"
BF:
Progress: 63%
Location: Rural Maine
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Thanks, Janet! I looked into Marty's carnivore writings. I do eat some dairy and some seafood. I'm also careful about added fat, as the high-fat percentages have never been doable for me.

I agree with GRB about nutrient availability.

Do you know what exactly the algorithm is based on? Can you really measure the satiety of a food for any given person? Isn't that somewhat subjective? Not trying to be argumentative, just asking.
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  #34   ^
Old Wed, Feb-21-24, 13:01
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,437
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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After five years of dedicated analysis of 838,686 days of data from free-living people, ON has unearthed satiety factors that drive your hunger, appetite, and fullness.

Cracking the Hunger Code: Our Satiety Algorithm
https://optimisingnutrition.com/satiety-hunger-code/

Quote:
Different Diets, Different Satiety Factors
Satiety is not a one-size-fits-all formula. People with different dietary preferences intuitively know that different foods help them feel satisfied with their preferred dietary approach.

We examined the data and found that different subsets of the population have unique cravings depending on the nutrients they lack. So, we divided the data into three subsets:

low protein (i.e. less than 12.5% protein)
low fat (with the majority of energy from carbs), and
low carb (with the majority of the energy from fat).

Our multivariate analysis enables us to calculate the precise weighting of each satiety factor for each population subset. Overall, we are satisfied with foods that provide more nutrients that we tend to lack on that diet. Filling in the nutrient gaps provides greater satiety.


There are many similarities among Diet Doctor, Ted Naiman's PE Diet and Marty's Optimising Nutrition's Satiety Scores. Marty's put more weight on Nutrients, which are important to me.
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  #35   ^
Old Wed, Feb-21-24, 14:26
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,044
 
Plan: Very LC, Higher Protein
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
Rob, I was trying to find a calorie equal amount, 5 pounds was close .
Point taken on nutrient availability, but it’s what we've got now.

Janet, understood and your math is solid. Just the thought of eating 5 pounds of cauliflower to get the caloric equivalent gave me pause . I still don’t closely watch calories, but I realize we all take various approaches based on what works. You and many others are testimony to the ON program. It works tremendously well for you.
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  #36   ^
Old Thu, Mar-07-24, 04:04
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,437
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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A new update from Dr. Eenfeldt…How Satiety can be TOO effective for weight loss.
Quote:
Here's another weekly update / eating confessional. 😜

I keep making lots of exceptions, being much more open to eating what is socially offered, and certainly eating many more carbs than I used to.

Yet, as long as I balance this by eating higher #satiety foods in general (averaging in the high 50s) it seems almost too effective. This week I dropped to my lowest weight in years, slightly below what I'm most comfortable at.

If this trend continues, I may need to back off a bit from the high satiety, making even more exceptions. Perhaps I'll aim for around 50? That should be extremely easy to do IMHO.

It's just very interesting that despite this approach feeling ultra-flexible and easy to do compared to my old strict keto days, it's still borderline too effective for me. Seems like a good sign.

To be clear though, different people may need different levels of satiety to reach their goals. It's not one size fits all. Very lean, very active people may want to stay in the 30s or 40s on average. People with lots of excess body fat and type 2 diabetes may want to go all the way to 60-70.

For me, 50-60 seems about right, maybe aiming towards the lower end.

I keep logging all I eat & use our Snap Tracking (AI photo logging) whenever I get the chance. It's improving all the time and really surprised me positively lately. Further improvements are on the way.

He was already lean and healthy, but even eating more carbs and making exceptions for social occasions, he is now at his lowest weight in years. He doesn’t mention it, but for me, this is also why maintenance is easy with Satiety Per Calorie.

Last edited by JEY100 : Thu, Mar-07-24 at 04:18.
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  #37   ^
Old Thu, Mar-21-24, 05:03
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,437
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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A new interview video/podcast on Peak Human Podcast, with Dr Eenfeldt and Dr Naiman discussing Satiety Per Calorie, their concerns about the new focus on Ultra Processed Foods, exceptions to definitions, many good practical tips how to increase Protein Awareness and manage Energy/Nutrient Density

https://youtu.be/4dJy9_SqCA8?si=FqmRwcVSfe7H6AMt Includes Chapter time stamps, transcripts, etc.

Also Podcast #212

Last edited by JEY100 : Thu, Mar-21-24 at 08:28.
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  #38   ^
Old Thu, Mar-28-24, 12:54
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,437
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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Today, launch day for the HAVA Blog, starts with a few articles and an Interview with Marty Kendall.
The Blog also has an excellent Beginner Guide to High Satiety eating,
https://www.hava.co/satiety/beginners-guide

Diet Doctor is keeping his awesome website for everything Low Carb and Keto.
But if you haven’t been able to reach and maintain your ideal body weight, consider using a Satiety Score to find foods that work better for you. With minor tweaks, I still eat low carb, 50-70 g TC a day, but increased Protein and Fiber, while reducing fat (but still 40%)

To answer previous question, what goes into Hava's algorithm :

Quote:
Satiety factors
Our proprietary satiety per calorie algorithm considers four properties and calculates the score of that food based on the values of those properties. This can be applied to single ingredients, dishes, and snacks. It can also be used to evaluate weeks and months of the food you’ve eaten, giving you an easy-to-understand evaluation of how healthy your diet is.

Protein percentage
High-protein foods not only promote a lasting feeling of fullness but also are essential in managing hunger efficiently. Consuming foods high in protein is associated with enhanced satiety over time, positively affecting the score. [1]

Fiber content
Similar to protein, a high fiber content positively influences the satiety score. Fiber plays a key role in weight control by helping reduce overall calorie intake, as it contributes to a sense of fullness and slows down digestion, leading to a prolonged feeling of satisfaction. [2]

Energy density
The relationship between energy density and the satiety score is inversely proportional. Foods lower in energy density, meaning they have fewer calories for their weight, contribute to a higher satiety score because they allow for larger, more satisfying portions that aid in weight loss without compromising fullness. [3]

Hedonic factor
The hedonic factor, or the appeal of foods due to concentrated combinations of fat, salt, sugar, and carbs, negatively impacts the satiety score. This factor refers to the hyper-palatability of foods, which can lead to overeating. By evaluating foods’ hyper-palatability, our algorithm can identify those likely to contribute to excessive calorie consumption and lower their satiety score accordingly. [4]

The satiety score
We created an algorithm that assigns all foods and food combinations a score from 0 to 100 based on protein percentage, fiber content, energy density, and the hedonic factor. We call it the satiety score. The satiety score allows you to see the real nutritional value of food in the context of calories. Nutritional labels are complex mazes that offer a lot of data but little useful information for the vast majority of the population. Essentially, the satiety score tells you how nutritious a calorie of any particular food or meal is and how good it is at appetite control.



VIDEO/Podcast: "Marty Kendall brings an engineer’s analytical rigor to the world of nutrition, dispelling common myths and advocating for nutrition grounded in data. Delve into the interplay of carbs, fats, and essential nutrients for optimal health. Unravel the secrets of satiety and nutrient-dense foods for managing well-being, whether it's diabetes control or weight management. Tune into the discussion here. Maximizing nutrition: nutrient-dense diets with Marty Kendall | Hava Podcast #5
https://youtu.be/-rzlm4b8fmA?feature=shared

https://forum.lowcarber.org/showpos...7&postcount=570

Last edited by JEY100 : Fri, Mar-29-24 at 04:50.
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  #39   ^
Old Mon, Apr-01-24, 10:41
BawdyWench's Avatar
BawdyWench BawdyWench is offline
Posts: 8,793
 
Plan: Carnivore
Stats: 212/179/160 Female 5'6"
BF:
Progress: 63%
Location: Rural Maine
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I decided to look into HAVA, just because I'm curious. I went through all the questions and signed up for the free 7 days. You had to give a credit card number because unless you cancel by the end of 7 days, you're charged for the next installment (not sure what it was). Unfortunately, something went wrong right at the end. My card was charged $1 holding fee, but my account was not set up. If I tried to log in, it said there was no account.

That was last Wednesday, the 27th. I immediately reached out to the customer support on Diet Doctor (since that was the starting point for creating an account) and only got the response that they would contact me within 2 or 3 days. It's now been 5 days. Even if they fix it now, I only have 2 more days of the free trial. I'd go in now and cancel the recurring payment, but it says there's no account there. Grrrrr.

I can contact support again, but not sure it will help. Not impressed with the rollout.
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  #40   ^
Old Tue, Apr-02-24, 02:38
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,437
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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Maybe message through the Hava FB page? Sure they will credit you the free days offered. https://www.facebook.com/joinhava.co
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  #41   ^
Old Tue, Apr-02-24, 10:22
BawdyWench's Avatar
BawdyWench BawdyWench is offline
Posts: 8,793
 
Plan: Carnivore
Stats: 212/179/160 Female 5'6"
BF:
Progress: 63%
Location: Rural Maine
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Thanks. I'll try that.
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  #42   ^
Old Fri, Apr-19-24, 02:46
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,437
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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Answers to all the questions about Satiety Per Calorie you have…but we’re afraid to ask. If you can’t seem to lose weight, or worse, can't maintain that weight loss, this Q&A session on video/podcast offers a new path to health.
https://youtu.be/DUeXG48h-sQ?si=3JuDOZBY1TAQjY-U

Quote:
In this episode, Dr. Andreas Eenfeldt and Dr. Ted Naiman take a journey through the landscape of satiety, challenging long-held beliefs about dieting and unveiling a future where eating right is not just possible but also enjoyable. Delving into our evolutionary past, examining the detrimental shift in our modern diet, and introducing the transformative concept of satiety per calorie, this episode is a treasure trove of insights for anyone seeking to improve their relationship with food.

Explore the intersection of technology and nutrition as our guests discuss the innovative Hava app, offering a glimpse into a future where food tracking is not just about numbers but about achieving true satiety and health. Wrap up with practical tips and a thought-provoking Q&A session. In this episode, we cover:

• The evolutionary basis of satiety: How understanding our ancestors' eating habits can illuminate our path to healthier living today.
• The modern diet dilemma: An insightful look at how refined carbs and fats have disrupted our natural satiety signals, leading to widespread health issues. • Satiety per calorie: Unpacking the science behind eating for satisfaction without overconsumption and how it can lead to a healthier lifestyle.
• The nutrition tech revolution: Discover how cutting-edge technology is making it easier to track your diet and optimize satiety with real-world success stories from app users.
• Practical diet optimization: From integrating high-satiety foods into your diet to rethinking food tracking, learn how to make sustainable, healthful dietary choices.
• Confronting food cravings: Insights into managing cravings and allowing occasional indulgences without derailing your diet goals.
• A Q&A session: Addressing questions submitted by our audience about adopting a satiety-focused eating approach, including special considerations for varying dietary needs and lifestyles.

Timestamps: 00:00 - Intro 00:51 - Welcome back, Ted 00:01:44 - First reactions and feedback 00:02:23 - What does the future hold for Hava? 00:03:51 - A refresher on Satiety 00:08:12 - Why we're making satiety simple 00:09:20 - How can people apply this approach? 00:10:43 - How we can put this into practice 00:12:37 - Q&A 1: Are you doing intermittent fasting? 00:16:37 - Q&A 2: Is satiety as effective as low carb? 00:27:15 - Q&A 3: Optimal recommendation for a menopausal, type 2 diabetic 00:32:14 - Q&A 4: How long does it take for food cravings to subside? 00:38:59 - Q&A 5: Any tips to reduce visceral fat? 00:44:22 - Q&A 6: How has Ted's approach changed over the years? 00:46:09 - Q&A 7: Why doesn't satiety per calorie work if you score too high? 00:50:07 - Q&A 8: What is the effect of sweetness on satiety? 00:54:05 - Q&A 9: Prioritizing protein & muscle-centric health 00:57:12 - Q&A 10: Same score, different outcomes? 01:01:53 - Q&A 11: Should we limit and time our carbs? 01:04:50 - Q&A 12: Biggest misunderstanding about Satiety Per Calorie 01:05:41 - Q&A 13: Are seed oils really that bad? 01:10:46 - Q&A 14: Who does Ted admire? 01:12:05 - Q&A 15: What is Ted's food kryptonite? 01:13:02 - Why satiety is highly individual 01:14:28 - Q&A 16: What do most people get wrong about satiety? 01:15:03 - Q&A 17: Are desserts less satiating than they were in the past? 01:17:03 - Q&A 18: The ideal monthly Costco haul for satiety 01:19:27 - Q&A19: When will Ted's new book be released? 01:20:05 - Q&A20: Thoughts on continuous glucose monitors (CGM) 01:22:51 - Thoughts on the carbohydrate-insulin model (CIM) 01:25:01 - Ted's bass guitar solo? 01:25:13 - Where to find Ted

Who does Dr Ted Naiman admire beside Dr Eenfeldt? Marty Kendall and Dr Gabrielle Lyon There are long standing threads here on all four of these nutrition thought leaders if interested in learning more about their work.

Last edited by JEY100 : Fri, Apr-19-24 at 04:03.
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  #43   ^
Old Yesterday, 12:33
CMCM's Avatar
CMCM CMCM is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,287
 
Plan: Keto / Atkins VLC
Stats: 173/148.8/135 Female 5'6"
BF:23.9
Progress: 64%
Location: N. Calif. Sierra Nevadas
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I took a look at Hava, but honestly don't see what it would offer me. I've maintained a membership with DD since it started, and I like the videos and recipes and all the myriad things the site offers. After 20 years of learning to tweak low carb (starting with Atkins), one thing I have definitely figured out is which foods create long lasting satiety. I love vegetables, but digestively have trouble with a great many of them so I always eat them with caution and in smaller amounts.

I have had issues digesting dairy literally since birth, and spent my entire life thinking my biggest issue was dairy. My mother had celiac disease, and I never thought I was affected because I thought dairy was my big problem. About 12 years ago I did some genetic testing and learned I also have the celiac gene, and I did a test that showed I should not eat any gluten OR dairy (due to casein sensitivity). So there's all that.
Through all my experimenting with what I eat, I've found that eggs, meats, limited vegetables, limited full fat dairy (which I mostly have as 2TB frothed half and half in my cappuccino each day) as well as limited cheese, limited nuts, zero grains of any kind and zero sugar....this kind of regimen provides amazing satiety.

I don't know how anyone could eat 98g protein in a day....I can't eat that much. I'm now supplementing with a protein shake each day (egg white protein) that gives me an additional 30g protein on top of the food I eat. Satiety with what I already eat is a major feature of my diet, and I don't get hungry at all for long periods after eating, nor can I eat a lot of volume at one meal.

As I sit here at nearly noon, I haven't yet eaten and my previous day's dinner was at about 6 pm so I'm at the end of 18 hours fasting (not intentional, but each day I generally get a 14 to 16 hour fast between dinner and the next breakfast. This works well for me). At this point I DO feel hunger finally and I'm about to eat my eggs/bacon breakfast. With cappuccino. And this will fuel me beautifully for my workout this afternoon.

Long digression, but much as I like DD and Dr. E and others, I don't see a need to dive into yet another program and try to monitor more stuff. It could get to be too much. I put my food into a little computer program I got about 10 years ago (Perfect Diet Tracker) and I've got all my customized foods entered into it, and it works great for what I want to track and know about my foods. So I'm not really interested in another app.

Last edited by CMCM : Yesterday at 12:42.
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  #44   ^
Old Yesterday, 15:14
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 14,682
 
Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/130/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 129%
Location: USA
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I do think it's great for newbies who want to get a better handle on things, faster. I wish I'd thought of my shortcut, sooner: getting my geographic DNA reassured me that I was eating like my ancestors

But it took years for me to figure all this out, and a scientific approach with the meter is something I can see as a better informed method of "climbing the carb ladder" as in Atkins.

And I've always embarked on a new plan with 2-3 months of tracking. If I hit a snag on my journey, I'm glad to know there's some high tech assistance out there.

Especially since it was such a game-changer for JEY. And we don't stay the same. I think it's always a moving target
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  #45   ^
Old Today, 03:29
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,437
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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CMCM, like WearBear, you are already at a healthy weight and have found the foods in Atkins that work for you. No need to change anything, DietDoctor is keeping the low carb website as is…it is not going away.

This new program is an option for people who cannot reach or maintain a healthy weight or still have metabolic health issues. Being very low carb, vegetarian, carnivore, or fasting does not work for everyone, so a program that applies a moderate amount of each, focused on satiety, may help. Even Paul Saladino, the Carnivore Doctor, is now an "animal-based" omnivore, whatever that means. But his profile photo shows a bigger pile of fruits and vegetables than I eat in a year. You already figured out satiety for you, but if someone still has rebound binges, cycles of losing and gaining, satiety per calorie is something to explore.

You found a tracking program that works for you. I still use Cronometer because it tracks Micronutrients better than any other program, though I must admit that Snap and Track feature of Hava is enticing! One photo of a salad with 10 ingredients and each is entered in the right amounts, results in the usual nutrition data plus a satiety score. I can be swayed by new AI technology.

Last edited by JEY100 : Today at 04:54.
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