If you're doing "real good keto" and pounding lots of fat in the evenings but still waking up with higher that expected blood glucose readings in the morning (sometimes referred to as "Dawn Phenomenon" check this simple experiment out

Youtube Chan: High Intensity Health

"High Protein Protein to Energy Ratio for Fat w/ Dr. Ted Naiman"

https://youtu.be/g6fY7grEsaQ?t=1290

I mostly eat late and fatty. My BG is kind of all over the place in the morning but on re-feed days where it's ~100 in morning I should review what I had the evening before. I thought it might be too much protein, perhaps too much fat hmm.

I've got plenty of fat on my body and don't really need to be pounding down the fat, lately i've cut back and am experimenting with Bikman's phrase "Cut carbs, Prioritize protein, Fill with fat"

I thought the experiment mentioned in the video might be worth trying for those with higher than expected morning blood glucose readings.

Good video, and I agree with this approach. However, Mike's discussion of drinking Bulletproof coffee and then getting tested at LabCorp to determine TG levels needs to be carefully considered. Unknowingly, the coffee itself, not the fats in the coffee as much, could be the culprit. Consider these findings from Sean who works with Dave Feldman:

https://cholesterolcode.com/guest-p...-triglycerides/

It was the coffee that raised his triglycerides. There can be many confounders, and I'm not saying that over-consumption of fats is not an issue, BUT, just like any other N=1 or study, we need to be careful to consider & eliminate any potential influencing variables before we can form a hypothesis.

Agreed, so many variables external as well as internal. I'm working on ways to stabilize the ones I can. A big one lately is the very narrow selection of foods that I've been eating due mostly to not going shopping for the last month. A blessing in disguise for my personal research

PS and the "experiment" I'm referring to comes a little later where you eat LOW or ZERO FAT hardcore like for a day (chicken breast and salad was mentioned off the cuff) then measure blood GLUCOSE next morning and see if you have "Dawn Phenomenon"

Perhaps opposite experiment and eat a few tablespoons of coconut oil or half stick of butter before bed then check glucose again in morning.

fun stuff!

Just adding a bit more to this incase anyone pursues it. I've started to dial around protein before i experiemnt with loads of fat in the evening before bed to see if there's correlation of "higher than normal" blood glucose in the morning.

I'm trying to hit the 1g Protein / 1lb Body Weight to see if I can keep BHB ~1.5mmol/L with current eating regime (ADF M-W-F)

I might need to lower that when I start eating every day - that's planned after 90 trial run ending June.


April 2020

BHb = Beta HydroxyButyrate, Glu = Glucose
Ux = Urine Strips, Nc = Net Carb(g), Pro = Protein(g)
Lbs = English Pounds, Act = (Type-Intensity[1-10])
<snip>
0416 - 2.7 - 080 - 40 - 11 - xxx - 204 - KiteFoil-5
0417 - 0.7 - 104 - 15 - 00 - 000 - 204 - KiteFoil-4
0418 - 3.1 - 080 - 40 - 09 - 112 - 202 - KiteFoil-9
0429 - 1.5 - 098 - 40 - 14 - 158 - 203 - KiteFoil-3
0420 - 1.5 - 102 - 30 - 00 - 000 - 204 - KiteFoil-6
0421 - 4.0 - 087 - 40 - 17 - 184 - 202 - None
0422 - 1.8 - 097 - 40 - 00 - 000 - 206 - KiteFoil-5
0423 - 4.5 - 086 - 45 - 15 - 200 - 201 - None
0424 - 1.2 - 097 - 15 - 00 - 000 - 203 - PaddleFish-2
0425 - 4.5 - 077 - xx - 14 - 248 - 201 - KiteFoil-7
0426 - 1.0 - 105 - xx - 11 - 196 - 203 - KiteFoil-7
0427 - 0.5 - 108 - xx - 00 - 000 - 204 - KiteFoil-4
0428 - 3.1 - 084 - xx - 18 - 203 - 200 - KiteFoil-5
0429 - 1.2 - 094 - xx - xx - xxx - 204 -

This is most interesting, because I always have coconut oil/hot beverage in the mornings. Coffee, or regular tea, or even herbal tea.

I tried butter instead a few times, but that makes me very hungry. While the coconut oil in green tea is an appetite KILLER.

There's still much to learn from Sean's findings regarding elevated TG after coffee. He's controlled for fat, but I'm wondering what in the coffee causes this. I would have assumed caffeine, but he tested decaf (there's still small amounts of caffeine in decaf) with similar results, so is it something about the coffee? I'd like to see the same experiment done with green and black tea.

Thud - you're doing a far more disciplined protein N=1 than I did. After researching Naiman's and Bikman's findings about protein consumption for those already on a low carb (non-SAD) WOE, I bumped up my daily protein intake a good amount, and I was still getting good blood ketone measurements (above 0.5 and up to 2.1). Also, you're eating (on your eating days) more protein than I did. I figured that per ounce of meat (beef, pork, chicken, salmon, etc.), I was loosely calculating about 7 grams of protein per ounce of meat. I realize that there are differences in actual protein content per ounce among protein types, but I was doing a very loose calculation, so it probably evened out ultimately. Given that my weight is right around 185 ideally, that indicates I can eat up to 26 ounces of meat per day using the 1 gram of protein per pound of ideal weight calculation. Typically I'm eating anywhere between 18 to 24 ounces of meat depending on the day where mostly or all carnivore days protein consumption is at the higher range. Sometimes I eat a lot of beef and nothing else. When I measured, true to Naiman's and Bikman's findings, I still was producing ketones in a good range for a fat burner. Interesting stuff, and each one of us will get different results, but you are learning a lot about yourself and staying pretty rigorous in this N=1. Valuable information.

Interesting idea, but doesn't really fit with what you see in rodents fed a high fat ketogenic diet--unless it actually makes them fat. Depends on the model, whether the keto diet has artificial sweetener, whether animals have a running wheel, probably particular genetic line. Obesity-->chronically elevated insulin, blood glucose, even if it somehow comes from a ketogenic diet, is a thing. Next day elevation in blood glucose--depends, decreased glucose tolerance may happen when dietary fat hits peak in the blood, but people eating high fat on a regular basis generally have a higher fat tolerance, a given fat load is more efficiently cleared.

Glucose being elevated due to decreased insulin sensitivity because free fatty acids are elevate is a very different thing from glucose being elevated due to excess glucose production/low insulin or excessive glucagon.

Good stuff you guys! and Rob, FWIW, here's how I'm calculating protein eaten during the day (on feeding days) I measure all the meat I'm eating and found it handy to know the 100g (mass of raw food) protein amount so like 345g of 73/27% ground beef is ...

3.45 * 16g = ~55 grams protein

I'm using Ted N's suggested (high) 1g protein / 1lb body weight as base level to experiment up and down from. Looking like I'll need to lower this if I eat every day to hover around 1.5mmol/L - not that I need to be at this level but that's what I want to use as another constant

I tried the Naiman protocol of more protein, less fat, but boy did I hate it. It just wasn't satisfying in any way. I don't know. Maybe it's the answer to all my problems, but it's so hard to stick with an eating plan if you don't enjoy what you are eating. I've never been much of a fan of meat but manage to enjoy it if I include plenty of fat with it. But meat with little fat? Ugh ugh ugh.

I agree that the fat keeps me satiated. I simply increased protein, decreased fat a bit, and it seems to work. Given the recent findings that older people benefit by increasing protein consumed, it seems to work for me. Protein fills me quickly, but I still eat fat.

The only take-a-way from Ted was to try for 1g protein / 1lb body weight. No trouble for me to eat at this level - however it might be too much - but I doubt it as I'm only eating 4 days a week currently.

Is that 1g per 1 pound of current weight or 1g per pound of lean body weight (which is what Protein Power calculated). I could possibly do that latter but never the former! Currently, though, I average about 80g of protein daily and it would be a little bit of a struggle to go over that.

Yep, that's what i'm playing with now. However re-reading this I'm over consuming - Ted N recommend (high) 1g/1lb lean - not sure how I'd figure out lean mass other than water tank or hyperbaric chamber

"Protein Power" - Not sure what that is. Some kind of plan?

Actually this thread is about eating FAT late in the eventing and it's possible delay in raising blood glucose readings in the morning - that's the real experiment here - protein was just mentioned as part of the crap I'm currently doing by accident I guess.

Protein Power is a plan. Even has its own section here in these forums! But it was a best-seller back in the late 90s. By Drs. Michael and Mary Dan Eades. They had a good formula in the book for calculating your lean body mass and you were supposed to eat that many grams of protein every day. IIRC my lean body mass worked out to something like 127 pounds but it would be a huge struggle for me to eat that much protein in a day. I usually manage about 80g.

Rendered fat yesterday and ate quite a bit of it, including beef cracklins' late in the evening. Net Carbs below 20 and highest blood glucose since donut/candy/cookie experiment in March.

BG 111 mg/dL

maybe there is something to this fat thing at night. continuing observations and continuing to eat beef cracklins' holy shoot are they good!