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  #1   ^
Old Thu, May-11-06, 08:33
zorra_1's Avatar
zorra_1 zorra_1 is offline
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Question Zinc Supplements

After doing some reading about how zinc plays a role in immune health, I've been curious to try it... It's already in my multi-vitamin (15mg-100%RDA). In Dr. Perricone's book, he includes info about there being no observed adverse effects up to 30 mg...I'm just worried about ODing on zinc!!

Is anyone else taking extra zinc and how much? I'm still looking into this but just wanted some "real" people's experiences!
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  #2   ^
Old Thu, May-11-06, 09:22
Zuleikaa Zuleikaa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zorra_1
After doing some reading about how zinc plays a role in immune health, I've been curious to try it... It's already in my multi-vitamin (15mg-100%RDA). In Dr. Perricone's book, he includes info about there being no observed adverse effects up to 30 mg...I'm just worried about ODing on zinc!!

Is anyone else taking extra zinc and how much? I'm still looking into this but just wanted some "real" people's experiences!
I take 50 mg a day.

The RDA is not optimum. It is the minimum amount required to offset obvious deficiency disease related to a nutrient usually such symptoms are so severe that they can lead to death or malformation such as vitamin D and rickets. They have since discovered a lot of deficiency diseases that are a lot less obvious or hidden or cause other diseases.

A better guide is to look at the tolerable safe upper limit of the nutrient for guidance.
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  #3   ^
Old Thu, May-11-06, 09:29
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Zorra,

I'm sure you are getting enough zinc in your diet. Meats are the best dietary sources of zinc. If you were a vegetarian, then I would be concerned.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/...icle/002416.htm
Quote:
High-protein foods contain high amounts of zinc. Beef, pork, and lamb contain more zinc than fish. The dark meat of a chicken has more zinc than the light meat.

Other good sources of zinc are peanuts, peanut butter, and legumes.

Fruits and vegetables are not good sources, because zinc in plant proteins is not as available for use by the body as the zinc from animal proteins. Therefore, low-protein diets and vegetarian diets tend to be low in zinc.

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  #4   ^
Old Thu, May-11-06, 14:54
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Whoa182 Whoa182 is offline
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You want to make sure that you get a good balance between copper and zinc. I wouldn't recommend taking a high dose of Zinc while on Atkins as the diet should already be quite high in this mineral. Copper also plays a role in immune function, getting too much zinc could comprimise your immunity because there is a chance of getting some level of copper deficiency

You want the Zn Cu ratio to be about 10:1
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  #5   ^
Old Thu, May-11-06, 14:57
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Whoa182 Whoa182 is offline
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Heres something interesting for you to read

Quote:
Zinc and copper are essential minerals critical to health and commonly deficient in Western diets. An ongoing study tracking the nutritional intake of Americans found that 75% of older American adults were found to be failing to reach the RDA for zinc, and none of them achieved even the minimum recommended intake for copper. Yet while the importance of zinc is widely recognized, copper’s crucial role in our health has often been discounted. An overemphasis on zinc has resulted in widespread, unbalanced zinc supplementation. And that has serious implications for your long-term health.

Zinc and copper are so similar in their atomic structure that they can actually compete with one another, not only for absorption, but also for utilization in the body’s biochemical pathways. When your intake of zinc is too high relative to your copper intake, the excess zinc actually interferes with the activity of enzymes, which depend on copper for their biological function, by stepping in to copper’s proper binding sites in the enzymes. When copper is not properly incorporated into these enzymes, they can’t fulfill their biochemical duties.

A high intake of zinc, without a balancing increase in copper intake, can therefore lead to a secondary, functional copper deficiency by competing for absorption and interfering with its metabolism. Research suggests that an excessive ratio of zinc to copper has a negative impact on cardiovascular and skeletal health.

Both animal and human evidence suggests that, for optimal utilization of both minerals, the balance between zinc and copper should be about ten-to-one. But it’s common for supplements containing these nutrients to include too much zinc, and little or no copper, with the result that many – perhaps most – zinc supplements and multivitamin multivitamin and multimineral formulas contain potentially harmful zinc imbalances.

This isn’t just a theoretical concern. In a series of human studies, putting volunteers on a diet and supplement regimen in which the ratio between zinc and copper was 23.5-to-one (and sometimes lower) – common zinc-to-copper ratios, found in many multivitamins on health food store shelves – resulted in wide-ranging metabolic disturbances, including reduced levels of the copper-based antioxidants enzymes cytosolic superoxide dismutase and ceruloplasmin, increased total and LDL (“bad”) cholesterol, anemia, reductions in the body’s levels of enkephalins (natural pain-killing molecules), and cardiac dysfunction (including rhythm disturbances and even heart attacks!).

At the extreme, out-of control zinc supplementation impairs immune function, despite the fact that an adequate intake of zinc is necessary for normal immune function. This is especially galling, considering that the most common reason for zinc supplementation is to support healthy immunity. One reason for this may be copper’s important role in immune function: one of the classic signs of ‘simple’ copper deficiency is depressed levels of important white blood cells (leukocytes and neutrophils).

Over the long term, it seems that other problems linked to long-term, subclinical ‘simple’ copper deficiency – such as impaired bone metabolism, poor glucose metabolism, arthritis, neurological dysfunction, and increased levels of Advanced Glycation Endproducts (AGE) – would also manifest from a functional copper deficiency created by excessive zinc intake, leading top copper researcher Dr. Leslie M. Klevay to warn of the “hazards of zinc supplements.” The problem, of course, is not zinc supplements – but excessive or unbalanced zinc supplementation.

Excessive Zinc and Prostate Health

The most ironic twist in the tale of overemphasis on zinc has only recently appeared. Many men take zinc supplements to support the health of their prostates, because the prostate has the highest levels of this mineral of any organ of the body, and most studies have found that low levels of zinc in the prostate are associated with benign prostatic hypertrophy (BPH) and prostate cancer. But a large new study, which tracked the health habits of nearly 50 000 American male health professionals for 14 years, found that extreme zinc oversupplementation is associated with a more than doubled risk of developing prostate cancer, especially if continued for more than 10 years.

This doesn’t mean that men concerned about prostate health should stop making sure that their zinc intake is adequate: there was no association of zinc supplement use and prostate cancer in men with more reasonable intakes of the mineral. But it does mean that the targets that we should aim for are the kinds of intakes typical of a healthy diet – meaning a supplement designed for sustainable, long-term use should not contain more than about 11 milligrams of zinc.

Copper, Free Radicals, and Heart Health

Aside from an overemphasis on the benefits of zinc and a mysterious tendency to ignore copper’s benefits, much of the reason for unbalanced zinc supplementation has come from the myth that copper is a ‘pro-oxidant’ mineral, which might accelerate free radical damage in the body. The reason for this concern is the so-called Fenton reaction, whereby “transition metals” (such as iron and copper), when present in their free, ionic form, can catalytically convert the mildly-dangerous hydrogen peroxide into the vicious hydroxyl radical.

But while copper ions can trigger the Fenton reaction in the artificial conditions of the test tube, it’s a non-issue from a health perspective – because the body just doesn’t contain enough free, ionic copper to be of concern. Test-tube studies showing that ionic copper can accelerate the oxidation of LDL (‘bad’) cholesterol, for instance, have used copper ion concentrations that are literally millions of times as high as are found in the body. In fact, controlled human studies have shown that even at high intakes (up to 7 milligrams a day), copper supplements don’t increase free radical damage in the body, but actually tend to decrease it, probably because of the nutrient’s indispensable role in the body’ antioxidant defenses.

Zinc and copper are both key minerals. You need both minerals – and you need them in balance.

References

Sandstead HH. Requirements and toxicity of essential trace elements, illustrated by zinc and copper. Am J Clin Nutr. 1995 Mar; 61(3 Suppl): 621S-624S.

Klevay LM. Lack of a recommended dietary allowance for copper may be hazardous to your health. J Am Coll Nutr. 1998 Aug; 17(4): 322-6.

Allen GD, Klevay LM. Copper: an antioxidant nutrient for cardiovascular health. Curr Opin Lipidol. 1994 Feb; 5(1): 22-8.

Leitzmann MF, Stampfer MJ, Wu K, Colditz GA, Willett WC, Giovannucci EL. Zinc supplement use and risk of prostate cancer. J Natl Cancer Inst. 2003 Jul 2; 95(13): 1004-7.

Lowe NM, Lowe NM, Fraser WD, Jackson MJ. Is there a potential therapeutic value of copper and zinc for osteoporosis? Proc Nutr Soc. 2002 May; 61(2): 181-5.
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  #6   ^
Old Thu, May-11-06, 15:35
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zorra_1 zorra_1 is offline
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Thank you all for the info!
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  #7   ^
Old Sat, May-13-06, 08:08
kebaldwin kebaldwin is offline
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To me it appears that the prostate problems with zinc are this.

Zinc promotes higher testosterone in men. Higher testosterone is usually a good thing except in older men that are not taking antioxidants. In older men testosterone is converted into DHT and bad estrogens - which cause prostate cancer / problems.

Which is why doctors kill testosterone in men with prostate problems -- instead of stopping the conversion of testosterone into DHT and estrogens.

So if you take a high quality form of Zinc and antioxidants then your chance of prostate problems will actually decrease.

But yeah, I would not take more than 50 mg for long periods of time.

http://www.interhealthusa.com/faqs/loptizinc_faqs.aspx

http://www.vitacost.com/articleResu...s&ss=1&Ntt=zinc

http://search.lef.org/src-cgi-bin/M...LCATS=X&NO_DL=X

http://www.worldhealth.net/p/aadr-zinc.html

Quote:
THERAPEUTIC DAILY AMOUNT:

30-50mg (take with copper to yield a zinc to copper ratio of 10:1). RDA is 15mg for men and 12mg for women. Coffee drinkers should take zinc supplements at least one hour before or two hours after drinking coffee, as it reduces the body’s ability to absorb zinc by 50%.

MAXIMUM SAFE LEVEL:

The maximum safe level for long-term use is 15mg, for short-term use, 50mg can be taken safely. Supplementation at levels greater than 80 mg/day may suppress immunity and cause other side effects.
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  #8   ^
Old Sat, May-13-06, 11:54
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Whoa182 Whoa182 is offline
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Check this study out.

Effect of green tea decoction on long-term iron, zinc and selenium status of ratshttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=15802907&dopt=Abstract

reen tea decoction significantly reduced serum iron by 26% in the tea groups (p < 0.01). The blood precipitate of iron was significantly decreased by 25 and 41% in the tea 50 and tea 100 groups (p < 0.01), respectively

high concentration of green tea decoction significantly increased the serum selenium concentration by 16% (p < 0.004). In addition, both concentrations of green tea decoction significantly increased the whole blood glutathione peroxidase activity by 102 and 130% (p < 0.01).

Green tea decoction reduced the iron status and improved the zinc and selenium status of rats.

So drink green tea !
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  #9   ^
Old Sat, May-13-06, 13:02
kebaldwin kebaldwin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoa182
So drink green tea !


Don't forget that the all knowing FDA came out a week or two ago and said green tea does nothing, is a waste of time and money, and could be dangerous!!!
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  #10   ^
Old Sat, May-27-06, 12:00
Whoa182's Avatar
Whoa182 Whoa182 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zuleikaa
I take 50 mg a day.


Atkins diet is typically high in zinc already and low in copper I suspect. Taking Zinc supplement ontop of this would totally throw out the zn:cu balance that is critical for maintaing good health.

Check your ratio between Zn:Cu

read this:

The effect of increasing dietary zinc on the activity of superoxide dismutase and zinc concentration in erythrocytes of healthy female subjects.

Zinc has many diverse functions and is essential for growth and development. Although a number of dietary constituents inhibit its absorption, a reliable index of zinc intake and/or bioavailability remains to be identified. The aim of this study was to test the hypothesis that recent changes in zinc intake and/or bioavailability are reflected in a subfraction of erythrocytes. Six healthy female volunteers were asked to supplement their diet with 50 mg of elemental zinc per day for 12 days. Venous blood samples were obtained before and during supplementation at 4-day intervals. A subfraction of erythrocytes was isolated from each sample and zinc concentration was measured in this subfraction, in the unfractionated erythrocytes and in the plasma. These showed no significant temporal change. Erythrocyte superoxide dismutase (E-SOD), a marker of copper status, showed a significant 20% decrease (P < 0.02) in its activity in both the subfraction and the unfractionated erythrocytes following supplementation. Hence, a detrimental effect on copper metabolism (as measured by the marker enzyme E-SOD) can be detected within 12 days of supplementation with a moderate amount of zinc


PMID: 8319668 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Requirements and toxicity of essential trace elements, illustrated by zinc and copper.

Sandstead HH.

Department of Preventive Medicine and Community Health, University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston 77555-1109.

Early signs of toxicity of essential trace elements are important. Some trace elements are available over-the-counter (OTC) and/or are present at industrial waste sites. Physicochemically similar trace elements compete for ligands, impairing functions, which is exemplified by the zinc-copper antagonism described long ago by Van Campen, Hill and Matrone, and Klevay. Intestinal absorption of copper is inhibited by zinc. Thus risk of copper deficiency is increased when the molar ratio of zinc to copper (Zn:Cu) is high. As shown by experiments, copper deficiency can occur in humans. Manifestations include decreased erythrocyte copper-zinc superoxide dismutase, increased low-density-lipoprotein cholesterol, decreased high-density-lipoprotein cholesterol, decreased glucose clearance, decreased methionine and leucine enkephalins, and abnormal cardiac function. Calculation of a preliminary reference dose for OTC zinc that assumed high bioavailability and uncertain copper intakes established 9 mg as a safe amount for 60-kg adults.

Last edited by Whoa182 : Sat, May-27-06 at 12:11.
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  #11   ^
Old Sat, May-27-06, 12:30
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Whoa182 Whoa182 is offline
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If one were to get a high level of zinc in their diet and also supplemented this mineral then it can cause secondary copper deficiency. Now if you add the fact that atkins is high in iron also, then this because even more of a problem as fe inhibits Cu uptake!

Before megadosing on supplements think about what you are doing more first.

Inhibition of iron and copper uptake by iron, copper and zinc.

Interactions of micronutrients can affect absorption and bioavailability of other nutrients by a number of mechanisms. In aqueous solutions, and at higher uptake levels, competition between elements with similar chemical characteristics and uptake process can take place. The consequences of these interactions may depend on the relative concentrations of the nutrients. In this work, we measure the effects of increasing concentrations of iron, zinc, and copper on iron and copper uptake in Caco-2 cells. Intracellular Fe or Cu levels were affected by incubating with increased concentrations of metals. However, when the cells already had different intracellular metal concentration, the uptake of Fe or Cu was nor affected. In competition studies, we showed that Cu and Zn inhibited Fe uptake, and while Fe inhibited Cu uptake, Zn did not. When the three metals were given together (1:1:1 ratio), Fe or Cu uptake was inhibited approximately 40%. These results point to a potential risk in the absorption and bioavailability of these minerals by the presence of other minerals in the diet. This aspect must be considered in food supplementation and fortification programs.

PMID: 16629169 [PubMed - in process]
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  #12   ^
Old Sat, May-27-06, 19:34
Zuleikaa Zuleikaa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoa182
Atkins diet is typically high in zinc already and low in copper I suspect. Taking Zinc supplement ontop of this would totally throw out the zn:cu balance that is critical for maintaing good health.

Check your ratio between Zn:Cu

read this:

The effect of increasing dietary zinc on the activity of superoxide dismutase and zinc concentration in erythrocytes of healthy female subjects.

Zinc has many diverse functions and is essential for growth and development. Although a number of dietary constituents inhibit its absorption, a reliable index of zinc intake and/or bioavailability remains to be identified. The aim of this study was to test the hypothesis that recent changes in zinc intake and/or bioavailability are reflected in a subfraction of erythrocytes. Six healthy female volunteers were asked to supplement their diet with 50 mg of elemental zinc per day for 12 days. Venous blood samples were obtained before and during supplementation at 4-day intervals. A subfraction of erythrocytes was isolated from each sample and zinc concentration was measured in this subfraction, in the unfractionated erythrocytes and in the plasma. These showed no significant temporal change. Erythrocyte superoxide dismutase (E-SOD), a marker of copper status, showed a significant 20% decrease (P < 0.02) in its activity in both the subfraction and the unfractionated erythrocytes following supplementation. Hence, a detrimental effect on copper metabolism (as measured by the marker enzyme E-SOD) can be detected within 12 days of supplementation with a moderate amount of zinc


PMID: 8319668 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Requirements and toxicity of essential trace elements, illustrated by zinc and copper.

Sandstead HH.

Department of Preventive Medicine and Community Health, University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston 77555-1109.

Early signs of toxicity of essential trace elements are important. Some trace elements are available over-the-counter (OTC) and/or are present at industrial waste sites. Physicochemically similar trace elements compete for ligands, impairing functions, which is exemplified by the zinc-copper antagonism described long ago by Van Campen, Hill and Matrone, and Klevay. Intestinal absorption of copper is inhibited by zinc. Thus risk of copper deficiency is increased when the molar ratio of zinc to copper (Zn:Cu) is high. As shown by experiments, copper deficiency can occur in humans. Manifestations include decreased erythrocyte copper-zinc superoxide dismutase, increased low-density-lipoprotein cholesterol, decreased high-density-lipoprotein cholesterol, decreased glucose clearance, decreased methionine and leucine enkephalins, and abnormal cardiac function. Calculation of a preliminary reference dose for OTC zinc that assumed high bioavailability and uncertain copper intakes established 9 mg as a safe amount for 60-kg adults.
I also take a copper supplement. I don't take the two together.
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  #13   ^
Old Sun, May-28-06, 08:21
kebaldwin kebaldwin is offline
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A high quality multi vitamin will include copper.
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  #14   ^
Old Sun, May-28-06, 12:30
kebaldwin kebaldwin is offline
Thank you Dr Atkins!
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Plan: Atkins induction
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It was Dr Atkins that got me into the vitamins. For those that only think of Dr Atkins for low carbing -- IMHO you are missing half of it.

Dr Atkins basically said -- try this diet and take these vitamins for 2 months and if you don't get better -- than give it up. It went so well -- I started buying every book, video, and tape of Dr Atkins that I could get my hands on. My doctors (who were anti-Atkins) were so stunned that their only comment was "whatever you are doing - keep on doing it".

Many people are surprised to learn that Atkins published "Vita Nutrients" and "Age Defying Diet" books on supplements. Probably his best work. It really ties together the entire health picture about what bad things do to your body and what good things you can do to your body.

I think what Dr Atkins was saying was (I hate to put words into someone's mouth) that nutrition plays a huge part in your health. Switching to a low carb diet is only half of the solution.

There are so many negative things we can do to harm our health. Pollution, estrogens and pesticides in our food, smoking, drinking, drugs (legal and prescription), high glycemic foods, etc. How many positive things are there?

Low carb diet, supplements, and exercise.

Then I went on to read all the other books and studies about what supplements have done and realized -- supplements can do a lot of positive things.

I think everyone should read the books like this

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/07...glance&n=283155

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/07...glance&n=283155

If synthetic prescription drugs can do positive things -- why can't natural supplements be even better?

I understand that people that have never had 40% body fat would not understand the effect that nutrition has the body. But as someone that has been to the dark side and back -- the effects are huge.

I had one foot in the grave. I want to do everything that I possibly can to avoid going back.
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  #15   ^
Old Sun, May-28-06, 13:38
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liddie01 liddie01 is offline
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I just ordered a copy of "Vita Nutrients" so far i have read "Atkins for Life', and a really old DADR printed in 1973, and newer one, with recipes added, and a DANDR from 2006, and I too am finding copies of everything i can read, since this is my new WOL i have plenty of time to learn about it. the second "Dr. Atkins Diet Revolution" the word "New" has not yet been added, Mentions "Dr. Atkins' Health Revolution" which I am now looking for a copy of.
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