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  #46   ^
Old Tue, Sep-11-18, 08:24
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Posts: 13,012
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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Quote:
“You could go on this diet and think, oh, that lump I had does seem smaller. The placebo is very powerful,” Sasson says.


From the Gabbatt article. This nutritionist doesn't understand placebo, this isn't how it works. Placebo gets looked at as "all in your head" all the time. That's not what it is. There isn't a "placebo effect" from "mind over matter" or people convincing themselves something ineffective is effective, etc. If there's a placebo effect--it's the total effect of various unknown or unknowable conditions that might affect the outcome--including things like reversion to the means. Happens a lot with bipolars like me. Or with people with lesser depression, or I'd guess with people with the sort of aches and pains that cycle--if you think you can predict the weather with your joint pain, you might contribute to the placebo effect in a study. Chronic major depression or pain are different. Anti-depressants often show as not that effective in trials with milder depression, but much more effective with major depression, where a coincidental remission of depression is less likely.

This doesn't mean that how a person feels/thinks about a treatment can't be part of the placebo "effect." Just that studies aren't generally designed to suss this out.

If the placebo effect were so powerful, in the way that this nutritionist seems to mean it--we have to suppose that some of the antidepressants etc. that Mikhaila took over the years not only weren't effective, but actually had an anti-placebo effect. If she's so good at tricking herself, why did she wait for an all-beef diet to do so?
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  #47   ^
Old Tue, Sep-11-18, 08:35
JLx's Avatar
JLx JLx is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,089
 
Plan: Eat less, less often
Stats: 242.5/213/207 Female 66
BF:High wt, 276, 255
Progress: 83%
Location: Michigan U.P., USA
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Well, I read the whole thing. A very disappointing piece of journalism, or rather, not journalism.

Quote:
I’ve never actually cooked a steak, but happily a friend offers to come and cook for me. My apartment isn’t very well ventilated and we manage to set the fire alarm off.


What an idiot.
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  #48   ^
Old Tue, Sep-11-18, 12:50
M Levac M Levac is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,436
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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I'm reading it. To summarize, he didn't eat an all-beef diet, he ate an all-beef-sticks diet, read his description of what beef sticks are. He doesn't know how to cook, so he went for the easy similitude. Neither Jordan nor Mikhaila eat beef sticks, nor do any other all-meaters as far as I'm aware.

That nutritionist, Lisa Sasson, is a genuine ignoramus. Otherwise, she'd cite Steffanson and the all-meat trial, and how fresh meat cures scurvy, and also how that all-meat trial was a very very very big deal because at the time scurvy was a real concern. Eat only meat: No scurvy. End of story. Even noobs know better than to ignore that famous experiment. Anyways, this makes the writer a genuine gullible fool.
Quote:
“Go out and have a beer and enjoy your life.”

...says the nutritionist. No wait, says my beer-drinking buddy. No wait, says my boss when he notices I'm all kinds of stressed. No wait, says my significant other when she notices I'm all kinds of mad sitting around the house. No wait, says the stranger on the street when he notices I'm talking to myself. No wait, you get the picture.

In the unlikely event that guy (or anybody else for that matter) reads this, I anticipate he will never read any of the several papers written on the experiment. So, I'll just quote the most pertinent line:
(from CLINICAL CALORIMETRY.
XLV. PROLONGED MEAT DIETS WITH A STUDY OF KIDNEY
FUNCTION AND KETOSIS.*)
"11. In these trained subjects, the clinical observations and
laboratory studies gave no evidence that any ill effects had
occurred from the prolonged use of the exclusive meat diet."

A reporter? Nope, a repeater of sound bites. Well, there's a proper sound bite for the gullible fool. I mean, seriously, that's how he makes his living?

- edit
Incidentally, mom sent me the link, that's how I got it.

Last edited by M Levac : Tue, Sep-11-18 at 12:59.
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  #49   ^
Old Tue, Sep-11-18, 12:59
Zei Zei is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,342
 
Plan: Carb reduction in general
Stats: 230/213/180 Female 5 ft 9 in
BF:
Progress: 34%
Location: Texas
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Concerning the guy in the article eating "meat" for one week with undesired effects, I glanced through and saw he was eating a lot of "meat" sticks. What? Of course he had digestive issues. Did he look at the ingredients in those things? I just completed my 80 day animal foods diet, and I can say I stayed far away from those things. They contain a lot of nasty stuff that isn't animal. Plus sounds like the author combined starting low carb at the same time. Keto flu on top of everything. Better in my opinion to be completely fat adapted first, then try all animal foods. Currently now adding back a little stuff like coconut to see what happens, as I was fine with beef but would like maybe a little wider variety of fats if well tolerated. And I didn't go interviewing any registered dietitians, as they're usually trained to automatically assume meat and saturated fat are bad despite good scientific studies that say otherwise, so of course the RD was negative about it.

Edit: Martin, your comment popped up while I was still typing mine. Looks like you already spotted those problems.
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  #50   ^
Old Tue, Sep-11-18, 13:23
M Levac M Levac is offline
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Posts: 6,436
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Yeah, I mean it's obvious he didn't do what he claimed, right?
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  #51   ^
Old Tue, Sep-11-18, 13:34
Bonnie OFS Bonnie OFS is offline
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Posts: 2,217
 
Plan: Dr. Bernstein
Stats: 188/175/135 Female 5 ft 4 inches
BF:
Progress: 25%
Location: NE WA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Levac
I'm reading it. To summarize, he didn't eat an all-beef diet, he ate an all-beef-sticks diet


Anyone who can read a label should know that beef sticks, aka processed meat, contains other ingredient. And that means they have carbs - sometimes a lot. That's why I don't eat them unless I've planned poorly & they are all that's available to eat. I'll admit that's rare tho.

But if the guy doesn't cook, why not eat raw meat? I know I'm not the only one here who does that. I often crave raw beef, especially if I've been eating non-beef protein for a few days.
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  #52   ^
Old Wed, Sep-12-18, 05:34
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Posts: 10,529
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/161/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 84%
Location: USA
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I keep seeing a lot of vegan propaganda in this demonization of meat. Can’t help it.

When you wade into science now, there’s so much special interest money and influence, we have to be twice as picky, because the “peer reviewed” journals are not.

Who benefits by us eating cheap industrial waste?
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  #53   ^
Old Wed, Sep-12-18, 06:56
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Posts: 10,529
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/161/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 84%
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
From the Gabbatt article. This nutritionist doesn't understand placebo, this isn't how it works. Placebo gets looked at as "all in your head" all the time. That's not what it is. There isn't a "placebo effect" from "mind over matter" or people convincing themselves something ineffective is effective, etc. If there's a placebo effect--it's the total effect of various unknown or unknowable conditions that might affect the outcome-—

——-

If the placebo effect were so powerful, in the way that this nutritionist seems to mean it--we have to suppose that some of the antidepressants etc. that Mikhaila took over the years not only weren't effective, but actually had an anti-placebo effect. If she's so good at tricking herself, why did she wait for an all-beef diet to do so?


Excellent points.

After having thought about it, I see the key element in the all meat diet’s effect on depression might be the abundance of amino acids.

I get great results for my anxiety by using niacin. In my thread, I'm doing niacin therapy, I explain that niacin isn’t really a vitamin: it’s an amino acid. Taking large doses of it is what my anxiety riddled brain NEEDS. While on therapeutic niacin, I have only the “normal” anxiety that is the price of modern life. I don’t have the dysfunctional levels of paralysis, the panic attacks, the worryworryworry that just burns up my psychic energy.

I have CONFIDENCE now. That is amazing.

And I do well when I eat a lot of meat. Pure and simple. Because that’s brain fuel. Neurotransmitters. That’s what it is all about.
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  #54   ^
Old Wed, Sep-12-18, 14:29
M Levac M Levac is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,436
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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A nutritionist is not educated on placebo in any way, nor does he deal with it in practice. In fact, a nutritionist is not trained in science whatsoever. He deals exclusively with the physical realm of food. The advice he gives is strictly a matter of nourishment for the body (which the brain is an integral part of) and avoiding physical deficiencies of essentials including those required by the brain. Never mind that a nutritionist must conform to the official dietary guidelines, which means he is not allowed to diverge nor to advise in any way about any other diet. In the end, when faced with an unorthodox diet like Jordan's and Mikhaila's, the most he can do is advise on what to do to get closer to the official dietary guidelines. Everything else, he is not taught in any official manner, so this means if he deals with anything else, he learned it on Wiki or on the street on in articles we're discussing here. In effet, his credibility drops to zero. And then below, when instead of advising dutifully, he cries wolf about crap he knows nothing about.

So, all we got is some dude doing it wrong.
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