Tue, Mar-15-22, 15:19
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Senior Member
Posts: 3,199
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Plan: High protein, lower fat
Stats: 000/000/145
BF:276, 255 hi wts
Progress: 0%
Location: Michigan U.P., USA
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Some here might be interested in my notes on this podcast with Dr. Naiman and Dr. Shawn Baker MD:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNGYo1C8eQk
Quote:
33% of calories as protein may be optimal. The American diet has gone down from 15% to 12.5% protein. 10% is obesogenic.
People on the national health registry who have lost weight and kept it off have all gotten it up to 19-20% protein.
30- 33% possibly 40% protein common in bodybuilders, bikini models, etc.
All the medical literature shows in a linear fashion, the higher the protein in your diet, the fewer calories you eat. Full stop.
His average overweight patient is at 12% of calories as protein. When he eventually gets them up to 30% they're going to go all the way to their ideal body weight and stay there forever.
So, the goal is to hit 30% protein. (An egg is 30% protein by calories.) Fat goal is 20% to 30%. Don't go below 20%.
Eat about 100 gm carbs per day "enough so that you don't have to burn up protein to make the glucose you need to be alive so you're doing a little bit of protein sparring there and that way you're not having to catabolize any lean mass if you didn't just eat enough protein to make glucose that day" .... if you eat absolutely no carbs you're burning up more calories manufacturing that glucose.
Should weigh/eat in equal grams protein - 100 pounds for 5 foot woman and 5 per five pounds, so 5'2", 110 lb woman would want to get 110 grams of protein.
Q:Can someone get too much protein? Maximums are theoretical. Could double amount above and you're fine, could probably triple it and be fine.
A huge amount of protein at one time is eventually absorbed. Absolutely not true that 30 grams at a time is all the body can absorb.
Optimal number of times per day to eat - 2 or even 3 but as you get thinner and thinner you have to eat protein more frequently because you're using some of it for energy. And if you're not eating it, you have to catabolize your muscles.
Q? Can you get fat by eating extra protein? Overfeeding studies where researchers dump extra 1000 calories of protein on an existing diet - lean mass goes up slightly, don't gain fat mass, energy expenditure goes up slightly. Within certain reasonable limits, you're not going to gain fat by eating more protein. The thermic effect of food is so high, that about 30% of calories are just gone so calling protein 4 calories per gram is not fair at all. We should really call it 3 calories per gram or slightly lower depending on the setting.
Studies on diabetics, such as Roy Taylor, where people given meal replacement shakes of 50 gm protein, 125 carbs and virtually no fat - have resulted in half of weight loss in lean mass. Metabolism goes way down.
PSMF is different as it spares lean mass. P:E Diet is different as it's just tiny incremental progressions.
Doesn't believe in short term diets of any sort as you don't learn lifestyle change. The faster you lose it, the easier you gain it back.
Q: What do you tell people who say they are more hungry on a higher protein diet?
In almost every case, people went too high too fast and the total calories are too low - no wonder they feel like they're starving. You can't eat 100% protein or you will be absolutely starving for nonprotein energy sources. And if you don't eat enough calories, you're going to be starving. The goal is a slight progression. Aim for 3-500 calories lower. You do that by incrementally nudging up the protein and incrementally dragging back the carbs and fat.
Substitute any amount of protein for carbs or fat and it's an instant win. (Even an isocaloric substitution is going to be brilliant.)
Q on relative value of lean mass.
Lean mass does a bunch of stuff for you. The more muscle you have, the more you can do, the more life you can live. Lean mass studies correlate with longevity. Muscle is a buffer if you get sick and can't eat for some reason. Muscle makes you more metabolically flexible.
Everyone's goal, whether they know it or not, is to get more muscle and less fat at the same time and that's how you become as insulin sensitive as possible.
Everybody has a genetic ceiling for how fat they could be, for how thin they could be, for how muscular they could be. (Body type: ectomorphic, mesomorphic, endomorphic)
Inside of that genetic limitation you can absolutely max out, you can be the best version of your self that you can be. And really the ingredients to that is protein and lifting. And it's basically making sure you eat at least a gram per pound of ideal body weight and then doing optimal resistance training.
Q about his practice: "I'm definitely making a dent. I see just tons of success stories. Tons of people come off of insulin. Losing 50 pounds. 100 pounds. 150 pounds. Completely reversing their diabetes. Or if they build up enough muscle with resistance training, completely curing diabetes. This is stuff that I would never ever have imagined was even possible when I was in my residency back 23 years ago. I see amazing stuff that I would never have even known that you could do - it's incredibly successful.
The only thing that kind of holds some people back, honestly, at the end of the day is basically the addictive nature of high energy density carbs and fats together so you get such an addictive dopamine hedonic response in your brain from eating doughnuts and pizza and cookies that it almost becomes addiction medicine.
I hate to say it but a huge chunk of my medical practice is basically addiction medicine. I'm prescribing suboxone for people with opioid dependence and that's very rewarding and I enjoy that part of my job and I'm prescribing naltrexone for alcholics and I have people who have all sorts of addictive behaviors - a lot nicotine dependence and tobacco use disorders and all this stuff. A massive chunk of what comes to primary care is basically addictive behaviors and addictions and substance abuse and to a certain degree once somebody knows what to do with diet and exercise but they're still eating these foods it is almost like an addiction medicine type practice and just like I do harm reduction techniques by recommending vaping and nicotine replacement for the smokers ....
I like harm reduction for people who are addicted to these carb/fat high-density foods as well by just saying "Hey, front load a bunch of protein - eat a smoked salmon omelet, eat two pounds of meat and eggs and protein and micronutrients, and then I'm not even going to tell you don't eat a bunch of doughnuts. I'm just going to tell you - eat this first because I know you're going to be so full you'll eat like one doughnut instead of a whole box of doughnuts which you would have eaten if you didn't have this big protein meal - harm reduction. This is the real problem for people who know what to do but can't do it.
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At the end they talked about fiber, water, volume, distention receptors in the stomach and his new book about Satiety Per Calorie (another catchy title!) but I was sick of typing at that point.
The Roy Taylor experiment was quite shocking to me - losing that much lean mass? He said what their meal replacement shakes were but I didn't write it down. Only 10% protein and 50% carbs, iirc. He said people gained the weight back, which is not what was reported initially after the experiments - like six months out. That would make sense. Even I have kept weight off for six months. In fact, it's about my max.
I can't agree with him that the faster you lose it the quicker you gain it back. It very much depends, in my experience. I lost 70 lbs steadily over 3 years when I was in Overeaters Anonymous in my thirties, and gained 100 lbs back in six months due to enormous stress.
I'm intending to lose what I can as fast as I can this time, at least initially. Getting off to a good start is motivating to me.
In his comments at the end, I couldn't help but think of OA and what I learned there about addiction. The only weight I've successfully kept off for years was "sugar weight" (30-40 lbs) What I learned about addiction in OA enabled me to quit it eventually. In OA, it was quite common for people to regard sugar and white flour as their most problematic foods. "Abstinence" from those two would help his doughnut addicts.
I still go to OA but it's been different this time around. I guess something is only new once. But it sounds like he could be referring some of his patients there, or EDA (Eating Disorders Anonumous) or FAA (Food Addicts Anonymous). Food is tricky as an "addiction" because unlike other addictions we have to live with it not eliminate it, but there are helpful concepts to be learned in these organizations and camaraderie to be had.
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They were just done as part of the experiment, to get the participants to lose weight as quickly as possible as they were only 800 calories. Given that, it seems terrible that they were the configuration Dr. Naiman mentioned - so low in protein. They were on them for six months, irrc.
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