Reading this thread, I have a question. Isn't the low calorie, low fat, no carbs, high protein diet advocated by Mike in fact the Stillman diet? I tried to do this myself many years ago (he proposed it in 1969) and it had the same effect on me that ephedra has had on certain posters here...I went into non-stop ectopic heart beats (skipping beats) for days and it scared me. I don't get this effect with Atkins.

But it works well for people who don't get this bad response...there is a lady on another forum who has lost about 160 lbs with Stillman.

Someone posting here was wondering about research on lc/lf/hp diet...perhaps a search on Stillman might answer that.


Val

Yep! I remember that diet very well (aging myself here!)

I can't believe The Stillman diet would be healthy for anybody; at least if they did it more than two or three days! I think it's used quite often today to break plateaus (which I appear to be on!) But starvation diets are not for me.

And then there was the "protein-sparing fast" (circa 1979) which supposedly worked well if you took lots of potassium suplements, and had the money for the partially digested liquid protein elixer (~600 cal/day). Until the USDA shut them down. The idea being that when you went on a complete fast, you lost as much protein weight (from muscle) as fat weight, so if you took in 600 calories of pre-digested protein a day, you would go into ketosis (after a complete fast of 48 hours to deplete the body's store of glycogen), and lose only fat weight. But without potassium supplements, it had a remarkable (!) tendency to cause heart attacks, not to mention renal failure...

This was also found to be very poor quality protein, mostly collagen if I remember correctly, (another reason why the USDA shut them down) which was not supplying the body with what it needs along the lines of complete amino acids, hense the muscle wasting effect even though the person was supposedly getting 125 grams of protein per day.

You guys realize this first posting happened in december last year? It first hit whe nthey talked of ephedrin BEING banned, and it just has.

I SWEAR this cat was selling something. Just in time for your pre-holiday indulgence and new years fasting!

Very educational, though, hearing the banter back and forth. I knew he was a phony when he said there was no such thing as starvation mode...cuz Ive been in it! Anyone who's ever crashed at the gym knows what it feels like, only long term.

Heres to living la vida lo carb.

JC

Pardon me... but:

> Very educational, though, hearing the banter back and forth. I knew
> he was a phony when he said there was no such thing as starvation
> mode...cuz Ive been in it! Anyone who's ever crashed at the gym
> knows what it feels like, only long term.

What??? No comment on the "phony" comment or the unfounded implication that the guy was selling something.... however, the "crashed at the gym" comment seems totally off. Crashing at the gym feels very little like slowing metabolism.

"Crashing during exercize" is when your body has depleted the stored glycogen in the muscles and liver... which is basically a speeding up of the process which occurs during induction anyway. Although very fast and stressful way to do it... Regardless, I've felt that at the gym after running long distances... but I would never liken it to "starvation mode" when the body slows down the metabolism in response to a reduced caloric intake.

In fact, a real serious gym crashing occured one a few months ago after a severely strenuous run and it felt EXACTLY like the powerful sugar lows I used to get all the time. (Which makes sense, since it's basically the depletion of all body's glycogen and, I assume, accompanied by a decrease in blood sugar.) I remember it was lightheadedness, dizzyness, nausea, hunger... maybe some other things. Fatigue was minimal compared to the other, more prominent, symptoms.

"Starvation mode" on the other hand, is a general lowering of the metabolism due to a reduction in calories. I may have had it, yes but not due to starvation... but I have had a general lowering of metabolism from another mechanism (thyroid) and I suffered entirely different symptoms: GREAT GREAT GREAT fatigue being the prime symptom, others being yawning, general cold (may be thyroid specific), hair loss, no hunger. It was a totally different feeling. Most of these symptoms are consistent with both starvation diets and thyroid problems. But all I'm saying is it felt utterly and completely different.

But maybe you were just trying to say "starvation mode" happened to you... and if that's the case... well... I guess I'm just up in arms about a less than elegant analogy.

C-Ya

By the way... if you remember how I was avidly insisting that high cal low carb didn't work for me???


It didn't and since then I have discovered I am hypothyroid... so now I know why. And knowing is half the battle. (At least it's good to know I wasn't CRAZY for being unable to lose at 10X bodyweight calories!!!)

yadadeedum

i got ala the other day and i was wondering what the amount u should take and how many carbs per that amount?

That is a tangential thought; hopefull you're not asking me! I have no idea what supplements to use, in what proportion or what not.

My life is thusly structured:

I take what my momma tells me to take--she's in medicine.
My momma structures her finances as I tell her to structure them-- I'm the tax lawyer.

It's a simple specialized existence, but it works...

Sorry pal, "starvation mode" is a very real entity. It is a natural occurrence that each and every one of us has the potential to experience if we for any reason do not consume a set number of calories vs. calories expended, have system/organ dysfunction concomitant with weight loss, alter macro or micronutrient ratio for an extended period of time, or experience hormone changes. There are many other ways to have slowed metabolic rate, but the bottom line is it happens as a way to prevent us from continuing to lose weight until we wither away. The physical signs of starvation mode are quite possibly a way for the body to cause us to end whatever it is that is causing the starvation mode.

We're not talking about people starving here. We're talking about how the body responds to change on a cell/organ/system level. You can talk to nearly any weight loss physician who will confirm that this is definitely real. I can assure you that depending on what diet a person is on when they enter starvation mode---of the normal variety---there are OTC products which usually quite rapidly counter the slowed metabolism.

With LC dieting, it's not the same type of starvation mode as low fat, or reduced calorie--unless the LC'er is also hypocaloric as well--but it has the same end result. I would go into this more carefully, but it is quite complex and I think I will devote no less than 3 chapters to going over it in the proper physiological detail it deserves---something which I cannot do here.

Simply put, with a low carb diet metabolism slows to prevent further deterioration just like with any other type of diet strategy. The body is able to recognize every single method of inducing weight loss (whether accidental or purposeful). You can't escape it without having to take further action. That being said, there are definitely ways to counter weight loss stalls and starvation mode. Again, that's a rather LONG post that I can't do here (probably no less than 2 book chapters).

As to a low fat, low carb, high protein diet for bodybuilders, that's just not true for the majority of bodybuilders, I can assure you. If you are not consuming a LARGE amount of fatty acids doing this--and I mean LARGE--then expect to have severe arthritis pains after just a few short weeks.

However, you are right that increased protein and lots of essential fatty acids are required for bodybuilders.

Also, don't knock butter if you please. It's a very valuable substance in my view.

I don't agree that everyone needs to take ephedra based products. Some people certainly have sensitivity to them and have demonstrated these symptoms before.

I disagree that ephedra should be removed from the market. However, the heavy advertising should stop, I agree. As to it being allowed only as a prescription, it's already been done so to speak. Meridia, while not ephedra based, is nonetheless a close chemical cousin and works by very similar mechanisms as ephedra. Certainly we don't hear of the same level of side effects with Meridia and I find that quite odd since it is probably a stronger beta 3 stimulant. Ephedra is also being studied for medical application as well (for precisely the reasons one member already mentioned). So don't put it above the pharmaceutical companies to drive for it's removal for financial reasons.

I don't feel ultra strongly one way or the other about removing ephedra from the shelves, but many people do on both sides of the issue. Personally, I would rather it be available with a document of waiver of liability signature required for purchase by adults 21 and over only than to see it removed completely.

I will say this against ephedra, the combinations I have seen in some products containing ephedra are way too strong and can sometimes contain several stimulants including caffeine and other herbs which can cause very strong stimulation. It is not nearly as common to hear of side effects from the more simple based ephedra stacks.

OK. I feel COMPELLED to comment on the Ephedra issue...... I am not going to even TRY to allude that people haven't had VERY real problems related to the intake of Ephedra.....even so far as some people dying. But, I am going to argue that saying Ephedra KILLS people is as stupid as saying guns kill people. (Please don't argue the merrits of gun control yet, stick with me. haha) Guns only kill people in the hands of someone who then use it to kill someone...whether it be out of stupidity, lack of education or just plain meanness.

Now, as for Ephedra, the same argument stands. Ephedra only kills people when they take it without training, or knowledge. I am a Traditional Chinese Medicinalist...I am an acupuncturist, with some knowledge of herbs. I am however, NOT an herbalist. I do however know that Ephedra has been used safely for thousands of years, not only by the Chinese, but by many other (if not all) Asian populations. Where did they get it? I can assure you it was NOT Walgreens, Eckerds, Safeway or similar places......They got it from HERBALISTS... trained in the art of herbal remedies. I can also tell you that very rarely was or is Ephedra prescribed as a single entity. Someone skilled and knowledgeable about herbs knows the properties of herbs and can combine them into formularies which can temper some properties, boost others etc. Ephedra would also NOT be "prescribed" by an herbalist without a THOROUGH intake....in my experience, much more thorough than one given by a Western Medical Doctor...and they would not prescribe something like Ephedra to someone who had a history of certain ailments (such as heart issues etc.)

Now, I again am NOT an herbalist...although I have many friends that are and have read many books. I would NEVER take ANY herb...including "St John's Wort", "Ginko" etc., without going to an herbalist TRAINED and KNOWLEDGEABLE about such herbs. It can be exceptionally dangerous and at the very least cause severe unbalances in your system. In the State I trained, it wa a three year program for an acupuncture degree (5 days a week and in addition to my Bachelor of Science) and then to go to Herbal school, it was another TWO YEARS. So, when people take Ephedra without benefit of soemone with this kind of training, they are taking risks as surely as if they were playing with an unfamiliar gun.

I implore people to not mess with their bodies and risk series damage to their health. Seek professional guidance form a trained herbalist....and your physician won't do. They don't have this specialized knowledge. You can find someone in your area by going to www.acupuncture.com for example......

Best Wishes,
Charlotte Vennik-Fordham, LAc

I can't help myself...But
Guns don't kill people
It's those little bullets that rip through the body that kill them.

And those daggone little bullets just shoot out of those guns all on their own, don't they? Sorry, couldn't help myself.

That's kind of like saying it's not jumping off of a highrise that kills ya; it's that sudden stop at the bottom.

Ephedrine is a proven killer! This sounds terribly dangerous!

All those idiots who died from ephedrine deserved to die. They should've went by the recommended dosage.