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  #136   ^
Old Sat, May-18-19, 09:47
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,222
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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Ken, your first post yesterday was a nail-biter...was it 610 or 437? and then to see 158 is somewhat mind-blowing! No idea what to say about it, other than consider reaching out to the CAC proponents like Dr. Gerber, Dr. Davis, Ivor Cummins, even Dr. Westman who knows you, and see what their comments would be before you see your doctor. They would likely want to hear from you. But most encouraging, the radiology tech checked and double-checked her results, so the radiologist isn't going to find some hidden surprise calcium.

Have you been supplementing with Vitamin D and have a level with this latest test?
Is the cholesterol test she uses an NMR so you have a small LDL number too?


Dr. Gerber (comments still current on this page, https://denversdietdoctor.com/lchf-...ium-score-zero/)
Ivor (comments on that new podcast, Ivor is at Oxford conference this weekend, but would be interested what you did. https://thefatemperor.com/want-to-r...w-podcast-ep21/)
Dr. Davis, his 2017 advice: https://www.wheatbellyblog.com/2017...art-scan-score/ He posts everywhere, on FB, twitter, blogs.

Last edited by JEY100 : Sun, May-19-19 at 03:52.
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  #137   ^
Old Sat, May-18-19, 19:41
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is online now
Posts: 11,377
 
Plan: Atkins DANDR
Stats: 210/188/160 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 44%
Location: Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khrussva
I had my annual checkup earlier this week. I've been eating VLC lately, so predictably my LDL-C has jumped well above what my doctor deems acceptable. She pushed hard on the statin this time and was quite annoyed with me that I continue to refuse her advice. She did, however, approve a follow up CAC Heart Calcium scan, convinced that what I have been doing would surely be adding to the score. I had my follow-up scan today.

In January 2017 my calcium score was 346. That was a score in the 90th percentile for my age. I had the calcified arteries of the average 75 year old and I was just 53. From what I've read that score can increase 25% to 30% per year for those continuing on with the diet and lifestyle that brought on the CVD in the first place. I've also read that a 15% (or less) progression greatly reduces the risk of a CVD event. I was hoping for no progression but would have been happy with any score less than 480 (a 15% annual progression).

When the scan was completed they rolled me out of the donut hole where I noticed two LED numbers on the machine that read 610 on one side and 437 on the other. I asked the technician if one of those was my score. She said no. I would have taken the lower number, but the larger number would not have been good news. Anyway - the technician called me back into her office to review the scan. They didn't do that last time -- they just gave me the number.

The technician was a little flustered and somewhat frantic. She was confused by my results. She said that CAC scores "don't go down" -- but mine did. She kept flipping through slices of my heart looking for more calcium to mark that the scanner software had not picked up. Every anomaly that she found as potential calcium came up dry. She thought that the machine might have had a problem or something -- again, because calcium scores "don't go down!" She said that one of their doctor's was going to review my results and send me the final report next week. But my tentative score today was... 158. That's 54% less calcium than there was 2 years 4 months ago. I don't know whether this is good or bad. After all, it doesn't happen. But I'm taking this as a good thing. No progression is good. Hopefully regression -- a lot of regression -- is even better. I started this WOE 5 years ago. These results make me wonder what my score might have been if done BEFORE I started LCHF.

I'm not sure what my doctor is going to say. She was expecting significant progression as a result of my high cholesterol and my refusal to take statins. Even after what she has seen she is still not fully on board with my WOE. Will this finally convince her that this is a healthy way to eat? IDK. I hope so.


Congratulations Ken, this is wonderful and amazing news!!
So share what you've been doing besides LC, if you would please.
Are you taking the fish oil or vitamin D like Dr. Davis recommended?
How about K2?

I'm hoping if and when I get some tests, it comes out as good as you because I have been faithful on LC for about 5 years now, I guess, but I've never tested anything....I know, my bad
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  #138   ^
Old Sun, May-19-19, 02:13
s93uv3h s93uv3h is offline
Posts: 1,321
 
Plan: Atkins & IF / TRE
Stats: 000/014.5/015 Male 5' 10"
BF:
Progress: 97%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khrussva
I had my annual checkup earlier this week. I've been eating VLC lately, so predictably my LDL-C has jumped well above what my doctor deems acceptable. She pushed hard on the statin this time and was quite annoyed with me that I continue to refuse her advice. She did, however, approve a follow up CAC Heart Calcium scan, convinced that what I have been doing would surely be adding to the score. I had my follow-up scan today.

In January 2017 my calcium score was 346. That was a score in the 90th percentile for my age. I had the calcified arteries of the average 75 year old and I was just 53. From what I've read that score can increase 25% to 30% per year for those continuing on with the diet and lifestyle that brought on the CVD in the first place. I've also read that a 15% (or less) progression greatly reduces the risk of a CVD event. I was hoping for no progression but would have been happy with any score less than 480 (a 15% annual progression).

When the scan was completed they rolled me out of the donut hole where I noticed two LED numbers on the machine that read 610 on one side and 437 on the other. I asked the technician if one of those was my score. She said no. I would have taken the lower number, but the larger number would not have been good news. Anyway - the technician called me back into her office to review the scan. They didn't do that last time -- they just gave me the number.

The technician was a little flustered and somewhat frantic. She was confused by my results. She said that CAC scores "don't go down" -- but mine did. She kept flipping through slices of my heart looking for more calcium to mark that the scanner software had not picked up. Every anomaly that she found as potential calcium came up dry. She thought that the machine might have had a problem or something -- again, because calcium scores "don't go down!" She said that one of their doctor's was going to review my results and send me the final report next week. But my tentative score today was... 158. That's 54% less calcium than there was 2 years 4 months ago. I don't know whether this is good or bad. After all, it doesn't happen. But I'm taking this as a good thing. No progression is good. Hopefully regression -- a lot of regression -- is even better. I started this WOE 5 years ago. These results make me wonder what my score might have been if done BEFORE I started LCHF.

I'm not sure what my doctor is going to say. She was expecting significant progression as a result of my high cholesterol and my refusal to take statins. Even after what she has seen she is still not fully on board with my WOE. Will this finally convince her that this is a healthy way to eat? IDK. I hope so.

Congrats!

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  #139   ^
Old Sun, May-19-19, 05:23
Ambulo's Avatar
Ambulo Ambulo is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,309
 
Plan: No GPS/OMAD (23:1)
Stats: 150/129/120 Female 64 inches
BF:
Progress: 70%
Location: the North, England
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Thanks for sharing your results and giving hope to us all. I don't think the NHS is going to fork out for me to have one of these, so knowing how you achieved this is so useful.
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  #140   ^
Old Sun, May-19-19, 12:31
Grav Grav is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,104
 
Plan: Banting
Stats: 302/187/187 Male 175cm
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: New Zealand
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A CAC is something I've asked for here in NZ as well, but I would have had to have forked out a couple of thousand dollars to get it done.

That's an amazing result though, Ken. Congratulations, and I hope you can take this up with whoever will listen.
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  #141   ^
Old Sun, May-19-19, 12:54
PilotGal PilotGal is offline
Look up to the sky
Posts: 35,953
 
Plan: LCHF
Stats: 206.6/180/160 Female 5'7
BF:awesome
Progress: 57%
Location: USA
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thanks for sharing.
not only remarkable, but should give all of us hope!

^5 Bro!
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  #142   ^
Old Sun, May-19-19, 20:04
khrussva's Avatar
khrussva khrussva is offline
Posts: 7,607
 
Plan: My own - < 30 net carbs
Stats: 440/213/210 Male 5' 11"
BF:Energy Unleashed
Progress: 99%
Location: Central Virginia - USA
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Thanks everybody. It is exciting news and I'm happy to share it. I've been on cloud 9 all weekend. I still don't really know what to make of it, but I'm very hopeful that reducing my calcium score can only be a good thing.

So what is it that I did to make this happen? I can only tell you what I did and give you my best guess as to what I think the key factors were that lead to these improbable results.

Step 1: Eat a carb loaded unhealthy diet for decades, become diabetic, lay down loads of plaque in your arteries and let it calcify. You can't reduce your calcium score if you don't have one.

Step 2a: Go LCHF/Keto all the way. Stop eating the junky foods that made you sick in the first place. I've eaten LCHF or keto (between 10 and 50 net carbs) for over 5 years. Was this enough to reverse a high heart calcium score? I don't know. My guess is that this WOE will slow or even halt progression of CVD. The caveat to that would be this question: Are you getting sufficient magnesium, vitamin D3 and K2 from your diet? According to Ivor Cummins and others those two vitamins play a very important roll in the proper distribution of calcium in your body. Magnesium is also very important. I have been supplementing with D3, K2 and magnesium for over 2 years. I often walk in the noon day sun for some natural vitamin D. I've added some fermented foods (sauerkraut), free range chicken eggs, and cheeses (Brie & Gouda) to my regular food rotation in order get more natural vitamin K2 in my food.

Step 2b: Physical activity... I move everyday. I've averaged 15K steps per day over the past 3 years. Most all of that is walking, but I have spent some time on the elliptical and plenty of time slow jogging to make cardio a regular part of my routine. I don't kill myself. I enjoy my new freedom of movement and I take advantage of it every chance I get. Watch TV or go for a walk? Ask my family. They know my answer to that question.

Step 2c: Fiber. I started adding fiber to my diet during the first year of my lifestyle change. Back then it was about having more stable blood sugar. Then when my LDL cholesterol became an issue I added a boatload of fiber to my diet - 25g to 40g per day from chia seeds, psyllium powder, flax meal, almond meal, coconut flour, hemp hearts, cocoa powder and the fiber in LC fruits & veggies. I ate high fiber for all but 3 months during the period between my two calcium scans. I don't know if fiber had anything at all to do with my outcome, but that is how I ate so it is certainly worth mentioning.

Step 3: Keep doing step 2, then get a follow up heart calcium scan. Your results may very from mine. We are complex creatures, further complicated by genetics and our state of health.

I hope that all of you have zero calcium built up in your arteries. That would be a good thing. You just need to keep eating healthy and you are good to go. But if you do have an issue, then work on it. I made educated guesses for what to do about my problems. Something about what I did seems to have worked for me. I can't say for sure what did it. But I will tell you that I'm sticking with my vitamin K2, D3 and magnesium regimen. I believe that those nutrients + keto + physical activity were the drivers in these fantastic results.

If you didn't check it out, watch this podcast video that Janet posted above (Thanks Janet! This was very good). I'm not the only one who has reduced their calcium score. What this guy did is very much in line with what I did. The content gets a little deep on this video, but somewhere in there is a good explanation of how proper nutrition can make the body repair itself.

https://thefatemperor.com/want-to-r...w-podcast-ep21/

Added 5/20/19

Three other things worth mentioning:

Apple cider vinegar has been a regular staple of mine over these past two years -- taking 1 tsp to 1 tbsp. per day. I haven't been 100% consistent with it, but I'd say I consumed that modest dose of ACV at least 80% of the time over the past few years.

The second notable is low-dose aspirin. After getting that high calcium score 2 years ago my doctor prescribed low dose aspirin and a strong statin. I refused the statin, but compromised by accepting the aspirin recommendation. After reading another recent article about potential problems with taking aspirin everyday I decided to stop taking it. That was a few months ago. But for the record I was taking 325mg of aspirin daily for most of the past 2 years.

The last notable is Niacin -- the regular 'flush' type. I did experiment with taking niacin twice over the past 2 years (500 to 2000 mg daily). That was done for cholesterol reasons. Each experiment lasted about 2 months. I wasn't fond of the niacin flush and the regimen seemed to make me sweat more on my cardio workouts. So the niacin thing was short lived.

Last edited by khrussva : Mon, May-20-19 at 07:21.
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  #143   ^
Old Sun, May-19-19, 21:45
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is online now
Posts: 11,377
 
Plan: Atkins DANDR
Stats: 210/188/160 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 44%
Location: Texas
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Thanks for all of that info Ken.

I didn't know if you decided to take the K2 because of some conversation about it's clotting effects. I haven't had any blood clots but I do think about that.

I haven't bought any K2 (yet) but have been eating some raw milk Gouda and brie too.

One thing I learned about myself and I know it's LC related was that when I had a colonoscopy 2 years ago they told me I had 100% oxygen and they said they don't see that very often. So maybe other markers are good too. I hope so.
One other articles posted here last week did say that they thought people who are LC have lower carbon dioxide levels. So that might explain a lot to me about the high oxygen.

I had one doctor tell me that he thought for sure I would have high BS but when I didn't, he asked me what I'm doing and I told him LC. He just nodded his head, didn't say anything.

Yep, this WOE works!!

Last edited by Meme#1 : Sun, May-19-19 at 21:50.
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  #144   ^
Old Mon, May-20-19, 02:48
s93uv3h s93uv3h is offline
Posts: 1,321
 
Plan: Atkins & IF / TRE
Stats: 000/014.5/015 Male 5' 10"
BF:
Progress: 97%
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^ another great post Ken - Thanks!

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  #145   ^
Old Fri, May-24-19, 13:41
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 3,125
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
Ken, your first post yesterday was a nail-biter...was it 610 or 437? and then to see 158 is somewhat mind-blowing! No idea what to say about it, other than consider reaching out to the CAC proponents like Dr. Gerber, Dr. Davis, Ivor Cummins, even Dr. Westman who knows you, and see what their comments would be before you see your doctor. They would likely want to hear from you. But most encouraging, the radiology tech checked and double-checked her results, so the radiologist isn't going to find some hidden surprise calcium.

Have you been supplementing with Vitamin D and have a level with this latest test?
Is the cholesterol test she uses an NMR so you have a small LDL number too?


Dr. Gerber (comments still current on this page, https://denversdietdoctor.com/lchf-...ium-score-zero/)
Ivor (comments on that new podcast, Ivor is at Oxford conference this weekend, but would be interested what you did. https://thefatemperor.com/want-to-r...w-podcast-ep21/)
Dr. Davis, his 2017 advice: https://www.wheatbellyblog.com/2017...art-scan-score/ He posts everywhere, on FB, twitter, blogs.

Exactly what I was looking for. Janet to the rescue. Ivor's interview with Patrick Theut was fascinating, and the good news is that my supplements are remarkably similar to his. Patrick is a great resource, as he's now walking the walk. Working my way through the others.
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  #146   ^
Old Fri, May-24-19, 14:20
khrussva's Avatar
khrussva khrussva is offline
Posts: 7,607
 
Plan: My own - < 30 net carbs
Stats: 440/213/210 Male 5' 11"
BF:Energy Unleashed
Progress: 99%
Location: Central Virginia - USA
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I've been waiting for my official CAC calcium score results for a week. When I had the first scan done two years ago I was in my PCP's office for a two time slot visit two days after the test and meeting with a cardiologist the day after that. This time around... silence.... until a few minutes ago, anyway. Apparently my doctor didn't know what to do with the results so she sent them on to the cardiologist whom I'd only seen that one time. It was cardiologist who called me today to give my my official results and consultation.

So it's official. My Agatston score is 158 - down from 347 a little more than two years ago. I dropped from the 91st percentile for my age to the 75th. So 158 is still not a great score, but it is better than 347!

The conversation with the cardiologist was brief. He started off by saying "Calcium scores usually don't go down. Your score went down." I gathered that he didn't know what to make of it any more than my PCP. He didn't offer any explanation. He did ask me a few questions in an attempt to remember who I was. He didn't ask anything about what I had been doing since that first test, so I volunteered. I told him that I eat LCHF everyday, exercise, and provided the short list of supplements that I take. IMO he was remarkably disinterested in the lifestyle information that I offered. So I pressed him for more details from the report. He seemed in a rush to move on, so he offered to post a copy in my patient portal. That was the end of the 5 minute consultation. I expected more. But at least I have a printed copy of my report. I look forward to comparing the two reports when I get home tonight.

FYI: I did send Ivor Cummins a message about my unusual results. He hasn't responded. He probably thinks I'm a joker or a crackpot. Now that I have my follow-up report in-hand, I'll try contacting him again. Dave Feldman did read my CAC scan posts on his LMHR FB page. He asked me to do a write-up/recap of all of this for his Cholesterolcode.com website. I'll do that this weekend.

Last edited by khrussva : Fri, May-24-19 at 20:16.
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  #147   ^
Old Fri, May-24-19, 16:51
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is online now
Posts: 11,377
 
Plan: Atkins DANDR
Stats: 210/188/160 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 44%
Location: Texas
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Very interesting and curious, the doctors non reactions and lack of curiosity. Maybe they're afraid to admit that everything they've always known as truth is wrong!
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  #148   ^
Old Sat, May-25-19, 05:56
thud123's Avatar
thud123 thud123 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 5,288
 
Plan: ~25NC/IF
Stats: 342.2/225/000 Male 182cm
BF:
Progress: 34%
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Pertty cool stuff Ken. It will be interesting if you get another one in the future. 2 data points don't plot very well - perhaps your first score was an error and you've been in the 75th along, or this score was in error.

If those doctor folks are really interested in your unusual results, and the scientific method in general, I'd think they do another scan gratis
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  #149   ^
Old Sat, May-25-19, 10:50
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 3,125
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khrussva
So it's official. My Agatston score is 158 - down from 347 a little more than two years ago. I dropped from the 91st percentile for my age to the 75th. So 158 is still not a great score, but it is better than 347!

The conversation with the cardiologist was brief. He started off by saying "Calcium scores usually don't go down. Your score went down." I gathered that he didn't know what to make of it any more than my PCP. He didn't offer any explanation. He did ask me a few questions in an attempt to remember who I was. He didn't ask anything about what I had been doing since that first test, so I volunteered. I told him that I eat LCHF everyday, exercise, and provided the short list of supplements that I take. IMO he was remarkably disinterested in the lifestyle information that I offered. So I pressed him for more details from the report. He seemed in a rush to move on, so he offered to post a copy in my patient portal. That was the end of the 5 minute consultation. I expected more. But at least I have a printed copy of my report. I look forward to comparing the two reports when I get home tonight.

FYI: I did send Ivor Cummins a message about my unusual results. He hasn't responded. He probably thinks I'm a joker or a crackpot. Now that I have my follow-up report in-hand, I'll try contacting him again. Dave Feldman did read my CAC scan posts on his LMHR FB page. He asked me to do a write-up/recap of all of this for his Cholesterolcode.com website. I'll do that this weekend.

I find that when in consultation with doctors, given the role they've been trained for where people expect them to be all knowing in everything health, if they're confronted with something they know little about, they'll downplay and quickly move on. Not a bad guy, but he's expecting the respect given to someone who knows everything, and when he can't offer anything of substance, he'll appear disinterested and imply that it's nothing of importance as a passive defense mechanism. Yes, we're all human. This is where we as our own patient advocates need to persist in our questions, research, and our own N=1s.

I'm sure Ivor will respond at some point, and I can understand why Feldman is interested, as you're blazing a new path in an area we know little about due to lack of long-term history in selecting for a specific dietary approach with a CAC baseline to measure against. All good stuff! Yes, 158 isn't a great score, but you can be buoyed by the fact that you're doing the right things to move in the right direction. More use cases like yours, Ken, will help everyone. I would reach out to Jeff Gerber (he's my brother's doctor) and Eric Westman (whom you know), as they'd be very interested as well.

Edited to add: Have you considered doing an update to your story on DD? That would be very informative to many beyond this forum and get the attention of many clinical professionals as well. I believe DD would love to hear about your results as you continue to write your story.
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  #150   ^
Old Sat, May-25-19, 16:07
khrussva's Avatar
khrussva khrussva is offline
Posts: 7,607
 
Plan: My own - < 30 net carbs
Stats: 440/213/210 Male 5' 11"
BF:Energy Unleashed
Progress: 99%
Location: Central Virginia - USA
Default A Side-by-side Comparison of CAC Score Details

Here are all the numbers from both scans...


------------------------------------------------------
SCAN DATES - - - - - - - - - - - 01/2017 -- 05/2019
-----------------------------------------------------
LEFT MAIN (LM) - - - - - - - -- - 16.69 - -
LEFT ANTERIOR DESCENDING (LAD)-- 101.13 - - 15.23
LEFT CIRCUMFLEX (LCX) - - - - - - 64.57 - - 59.24
RIGHT CORONARY ARTERY (RCA) -- - 164.31 - - 84.01
------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL AGATSTON SCORE - - - - - - 346.70 -- 158.48
------------------------------------------------------
PERCENTILE RANKING FOR MY AGE - - - 91% - - 75%
------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL VOLUME SCORE*- - - - - - - 270.38 - - 74.22
------------------------------------------------------


* The volume scores may not be comparable. On the 2017 report it says that "the volume score can be useful for comparison with follow-up examinations." On that first report the volume score is shown as mm cubed. The 2019 report is a completely different layout than the 2017 report, though much of the content is the same. On the 2019 report they list the volume score as square mm. Different units of measure? That doesn't make sense. I'll call the lab next week to ask about that. If the units of measure are stated correctly on both reports, then the two numbers above are not comparable.

Also -- the 2019 report didn't show a Left Main (LM) number. Where the 2017 report added up 4 numbers to get the Total Agatston Score the 2nd report only summed up the 3 numbers. I question that drop in my LAD. Perhaps their software screwed up. The number with the LAD would make more sense to the right of the LM number. Perhaps the LAD score is missing? IDK. I didn't get much feedback from my cardiologist. When I call the radiology lab this week I'll ask about this change in the report, too.

Rob - I thought about submitting these reports to DD for an opinion or for a possible write-up. But I agree with thud that a 3rd scan - maybe 2 years from now - would help confirm the accuracy of these two scans. I'd hate to be a black eye for the DD reputation should the trend be significantly different two years from now. I have no plans to change my lifestyle in any significant way. If what I have done for the past 2 years is clearing calcium from my arteries, then I would expect to see a lower score in 2021. Maybe my doctor will allow me another follow-up in 2020, but I doubt it.

I might pass these reports on to the DD and ask him to forward them on to Dr. Bret Scher - the low carb cardiologist that I met in SD last summer. Maybe he can shed more insight on my results and a write-up from him would be more credible that anything I could put together.

Last edited by khrussva : Sat, May-25-19 at 18:52.
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