How vain is it to think we are above nature. Everything we have meddled with has only caused harm to us and to the real world. The real world is in charge, we are not. The real world will decide our fate, if we don't learn to live in the real world. All we have done is produced a fake world that has led us down a path of ultimate doom. It is one thing to love the illusion (as one might love a temporary high from drugs), it is another thing to buy into it! I don't think we are above nature and in the end nature will win, and we will destroy ourselves in this experiment we call "civilization". It is a fact (not a fantasy) that we have already destroyed many species of life and whole ecosystems. The ride to get to where some of us can bask in some "luxury" of our artificial world (on the backs of many slaves of the past and present), is not an indication of any "success". It is merely the false sense of "security" (a spell that we are under). It is so temporary in time. It will be washed away very soon, unless this "intelligence" we supposedly have comes to our aid. The way we have been living on this planet, I fail to see that happening at the present time. Please point to what we have done? We are "victims" of our own "intelligence". By walking away from our place in nature, we are dependent on our own simple species. That is truly scary, cuz the way in which society has evolved over the past several thousand years is not promising! It is very scary! Perhaps, by some miracle, it will turn around. But, it won't be with more of the same. It will be in a RETURN to a respect for nature. Sustainable farming, population control, not more mass consumerism, and "technological" mumbo jumbo (read profit motivated junk!). We need to get our act together, cuz we can't survive without nature, as much as we might dream about doing so! Time to wake up or die. It is a warning that we must heed, or we will be (should be) "taken out". Sorry, but that is the theme I get from this book.

You seem to have blinders on when you speak of "improvements". Don't you see the destruction that has occurred in our history? Don't you see the need for REAL "improvements" that are far from reality in our present plight? Things are NOT good for humanity at the present time. They might be in the future (let's all hope they are), but I can't buy into this "continuous improvement theory" of yours. We have not been into that mode... sorry! Perhaps some of us have seen an "easier life"... and we are kidding ourselves into believing that it is "better". But, if we are really honest with ourselves, even our "easier life" has many negative aspects for even ourselves, let alone the natural world, and the majority of people in the civilization that has been built on this planet. I think your logic is too simple to say it is always about "continuous improvement". Cuz it's NOT!

I don't see how this is correct, since humanity existed for millions of years prior to "civilization(s)".

Being human does not equal civilization. Groups of humans does not equal civilization.

Civilization is a relationship and humanity is not defined by that relationship.

See my point? We can't think outside of it. It has us.... as an all-pervasive ideology.

I am not the one sticking my fingers in my ears and denying anything. That is for sure.

I can not wait for this dis-ease of civilization to pass, or perhaps more correctly, for us to stop believing we need it.

Surely it can be seen that PlaneCrazy has related fact based on observation and from this made some inevitable predictions. Anyone suffering from intellectual myopia may find difficulty in comprehending this. It is inescapable that humanity is progressing; any opposing view has to be motivated by fear or some ulterior motive. We are not just maggots on a dung-heap; human society is struggling to break free of the primordial-mud, like a butterfly from its chrysalis but, as yet, it has not severed the umbilical-chord of antiquity. What the future holds; who knows; but, with technology we are progressing and technology is the tool of humans and of no other species. PlaneCrazy's knowledge of the state of current technology is unique and where he thinks it is taking us is fascinating and we are privileged to have his views!

I don't doubt that technology is necessary or unavoidable. It is more about how we are going to use technology to benefit us, and it has not always been used for that. It has often been used to serve a small class of people. We also need to be aware of how limited natural resources are. We can't (at this time) go beyond what our planet can support, or we will be in BIG trouble!

I do understand your position Paleo but as has been pointed out by PlaneCrazy the thrust of progress has been towards the betterment of the human condition

Overall, I guess I would tend to agree with this. Humans are optimistic by nature.

Tribes, clans, bands do NOT equal civilization. They equal groups of humans.

Yes, that was what I meant. Sorry if I was confusing with my nomenclature.





I believe that H. sapiens has only existed for approximately 200k years. To compare beyond that seems rather pointless to me. Even these earliest human remains have shown signs of culture, as in this article here: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?ar...6B8809EC588EEDF



That is part of my point. It is one of our adaptations to our environment, just as bipedalism and opposable thumbs are.

It seems that what you are really opposed to is modernization. I say, we are only here on Earth's whim. She can bat us out in the blink of an eye if she so chooses (take for example the tsunamis, earthquakes, and hurricanes we've seen lately). To think that we have such a large effect that we could completely destroy nature is nothing but hubris. Greenhouse gases, for instance...one good volcano will put out more greenhouse gas than all of humanity combined, and it is a totally natural process. Animal extinctions, for instance...there have been at least five major global extinction events in Earth's history. It is nothing new. Some may call this time period a sixth. But extinction is a part of the cycle of life...if an animal has gone extinct, it's because it can no longer adapt quickly enough to its changing environment. Species go extinct all the time, and have been going extinct for as long as there has been life on Earth. Earth is not static. New species will arise in the future. Perhaps we'll go extinct at some point, and something else will come along and wonder what all our funny trash was for.

I reject the idea that our choice is some sort of 'struggle to break free of the primordial-mud'. Why do we still feel the need to break free of anything primordial or even muddy? Seems as though we have this disgust of the earth and the primordial, which, I feel is a disgust with ourselves. Unhealthy.

Do people still feel that the real world, which we now separate and call the "wild" is "nasty,brutish and short"? Of course people do, it's an imprint from civilization. In no way am I saying to be isolated....that is getting old, really, why do people equate pre-civilization with isolation....methinks it's because we have been taught to believe that. That would keep us close to the light, so to speak and easily controllable.

What are we struggling to break ourselves from? I feel the problem is that very sentiment. It's still a belief that we are somehow separate from that which makes us,...is us. I consider that unhealthy, not fear, nor an ulterior motive (which would be what exactly?...thanks for the implication by the way... ). See any connection between hating your body and hating the earthly, material, wildness of yourself?

I do not believe we are some kind of pinnacle of evolution, the chosen ones or struggling to break free of anything other than civilization itself. And agriculture is it's harbinger.

Eating is our primordial relationship.

I don't want more artificial light. I don't want machines in me or controlling me from the outside. I don't want to not eat (so I can do what? spend more time to embrace technology even more and fulfill human's manifest destiny of being the super conciousness?).

I want to eat.

If that is what you meant (tribes, not civilization), then why are you still arguing the point?

Culture does not equal civilization either.

What do you mean by modernization then?

And where have I said anything about us destoying the earth?

They will probably have long debates on their own forums about how all this "funny trash" was what we ate!

We'll be known as Obligate plasticametalica!

I asked, kind of hoping to get some reflection:

Well... we will find a way! When it comes to the fantastically horrible stuff... we always seem to!

There... was that reflective enough?