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  #1   ^
Old Wed, Feb-16-05, 14:12
Sunshne24's Avatar
Sunshne24 Sunshne24 is offline
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Question Puffy Face

I am wondering if any other Hypos out there have this symptom (puffy face)...and if so is there any pain or discomfort involved? This has been my most bothersome symptom. In the first year I only noticed it in my forehead and around my eyes. Gradually it has spread throughout my face and neck. Although it is difficult to detect in the mirror when I touch my face it almost feels like a water balloon. It seems that I have worse headaches and muscle pain when I am very swollen. It causes very bad jaw and eye pain and I believe it has caused me to develop TMJ. Now that I have increased T4 &T3 the swelling seems to have gone down some (like a half-filled water balloon). It is worse when I wake up. Every Hypo symptom list I've seen includes puffy face...but what causes the puffy face? My doctor ignores me when I ask about this. I've read about mucopolysaccharides and I'm wondering if thats what I have, my doc says no, he says it only occurs in extremely Hypo people. Now that I am less swollen my eyes and eyelids are very sticky...my tears are sticky as well and if my face warms up it is also sticky. Anyone know what may be causing this...will it ever go away? Now that I have seen Hypo before and after pics of me there is no mistaking the facial changes but my doc is "still unimpressed" (his words). Any comments about this would help.
Rachel

Last edited by Sunshne24 : Wed, Feb-16-05 at 14:58.
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  #2   ^
Old Wed, Feb-16-05, 17:28
Natrushka Natrushka is offline
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The puffy face is caused by the water retention, Rachel. Think PMS and you're on the right track. Thyroid hormones interact with all your other hormones so when they're out of whack the other ones (estrogen, progesterone, DHEA, cortisol) will be as well.

PMS is caused by the balanced between progesterone / estrogen. When it's really out of whack you feel quite awful. Try a google on Estrogen Dominance and Dr. Lam. When estrogen is high progesterone is often very low; you need progesterone for thyroid hormones to work well. It's a viscious circle.

I think you need something else, quite seriously: A new doctor.

Yes, it will go away, when things are 'fixed' and the balance is restored.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't your TT3 count a little low? And you've not had a FT3 done, right? If yes, how could your doctor know just how 'very hypo' you are or aren't? That like me saying "Oh Rachel, you're fine, really - I can tell by the way you typed that last post"! It's preposterous.
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  #3   ^
Old Wed, Feb-16-05, 21:35
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Sunshne24 Sunshne24 is offline
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Nat,
I just got my lab results back...I'm pretty surprised at the results. My last results which I had already posted were:

TSH - 1.1 (.5-5.5)
FT4 - 1.6 (.9-1.8)
TT3 - 101 (70-200)
My new results are:
TSH - <.004
FT4 - 1.6
TT3 - 344
FT3 - 768 (230-420)

I obviously need to cut back on the Cytomel. I have no Hyper symptoms which is why I'm surprised at the results. My pulse has quickened but thats about it. No palpitations, sweating, shakiness, etc. My appetite has not increased either. I am still retaining fluid...can this still be caused by the imbalance even though I have gone in the other direction? Can I still have Hypo symptoms with these test results? I know things do not change overnight but I thought I'd notice something since I started the Cytomel. When I was symptom free before RAI my TSH was usually about <.002. FT4 was around 2.0 and TT3 around 180. This is what I'm trying to get back to. I'm starting to wonder if something else may be causing my problems since nothing seems to improve...but I have not had good doctors so I've been on a roller coaster with my thyroid levels. I do want to switch docs, I am in S.F. Bay Area and I know there are some good ones around but I have Kaiser and cannot switch yet. My doc never even called with these results...I called and was told my labs were excellent! I called again for the numbers & was very surprised. Also I did have my Cholesterol levels checked. The results were good (I think)
total cholesterol 120mg/dL
triglycerides 97mg/dL
HDL 47mg/dL
LDL 54mg/dL
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  #4   ^
Old Thu, Feb-17-05, 07:47
Natrushka Natrushka is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunshne24
TSH - <.004
FT4 - 1.6
TT3 - 344
FT3 - 768 (230-420)


Rachel, did you take your meds before you had your tests done? If yes, then those are not real numbers, which I suspect is the case. A FT3 of 768 is either a mistake by the lab or the result of you taking your meds w/in 8 hours of being poked. You're taking your cytomel 3x a day, so there'd be quite a bit still in your system even after 8 hours, T3 has a half life of 48 hours, it peaks around 8 hours after you take it, but it's still going to be in your system for a minimum 16 hours later.

I agree with Friday about your doctor. Fire his ass. If he thinks those labs are excellent he's really whacked. He should be questioning those numbers and your symptoms. Unreal.
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  #5   ^
Old Wed, Feb-16-05, 21:45
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fridayeyes fridayeyes is offline
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IMHO - new doc, even if you have to pay out of pocket! One appointment will only be one or two hundred dollars, and this is your health we're talking about.

Carl Ebnother's practice is in Santa Clara. Other than that, go to www.armourthyroid.com. Go to the "find a Doctor" section and put in your zip code. You'll get a list. Ebnother's practice is mostly staffed by people he's trained, not by him himself, but it's a good practice. Worth the trip.
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  #6   ^
Old Wed, Feb-16-05, 21:49
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Sunshne24 Sunshne24 is offline
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Friday,
I think I will call his office first thing in the morning...shoulda done it a long time ago.
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  #7   ^
Old Wed, Feb-16-05, 21:51
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fridayeyes fridayeyes is offline
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Tip - see if they have any cancellations, tell them your FT levels are on a rollercoaster and your face is swollen. It might get you in sooner.
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  #8   ^
Old Wed, Feb-16-05, 21:54
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Sunshne24 Sunshne24 is offline
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Will do...hopefully I can get in there asap.
Thanks
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  #9   ^
Old Wed, Feb-16-05, 21:58
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fridayeyes fridayeyes is offline
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Plan: low glycemic
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Let us know, ok? Nat's gonna have a fit when she sees those numbers.
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  #10   ^
Old Thu, Feb-17-05, 09:42
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fridayeyes fridayeyes is offline
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Wow, ya learn somehting new every day! Thanks Nat.

Friday
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  #11   ^
Old Thu, Feb-17-05, 09:53
Natrushka Natrushka is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fridayeyes
Wow, ya learn somehting new every day! Thanks Nat.

Friday



*lol* But it doesn't usually happen so early in the day, huh?

The 'rules' for testing are eight hours prior to your tests do not take your meds if:
  • you are taking Synthroid (or any other T4-only med) and you are having your FT4 tested. It will skew your FreeT4 test and possibly your TSH, but not Total T4, Free T3, Total T3, or T3 Uptake.
  • you are taking Armour (or any combination of T3 and T4) and you are having your Free T3 and Free T4 tested. It will skew your FT3/FT4 and possibly your TSH but shouldn't have an effect on Total T3, Total T4, or T3 Uptake.
  • you are taking Cytomel and you are having your FT3 tested. It will skew your FreeT3 test and possibly your TSH, but not Total T3, Free T4, Total T4 or T3 Uptake.

YMMV, some of us metabolize slower than others, so the effects might still be felt for more than 8 hours later.

N
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  #12   ^
Old Thu, Feb-17-05, 10:14
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fridayeyes fridayeyes is offline
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Yes, if it's going to happen before 8 am, please keep it short and use small words. My T3 thanks you.
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  #13   ^
Old Thu, Feb-17-05, 12:45
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Sunshne24 Sunshne24 is offline
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Nat,

I am taking the T3 6 hours apart 3 times daily starting at 7:30 am. I took the test at about 10 am. I did that intentionally because what I remember reading is that due to fact that T3 is so quick to metabolise you should test within 3 hours of taking your dose. It is not good to have large surges of T3 throughout the day, too much stress on the heart or something like that. Testing within 3 hours will show if this is happening. I suspect if I had waited or skipped a dose these numbers wouldn't look so whack but then I would be unaware of the surges that are occuring due to high amounts of T3. I am confused I do notice now that I have been waking up at night a little sweaty and feeling my heartbeat loudly. This only happens late at night for some reason and some nights I do not experience it. I think I went overboard with the T3. My doc wanted me to start out taking 5 mcgs twice daily and I had read that this is the typical dose unless you've had thyroid cancer and are trying to supress TSH. The problem is that he said that dose is currently unavailable, I'm not sure why, but he has not been able to prescribe it recently. He said the smallest dose available would be 25. He wanted me taking 12.5 once a day. I started taking it twice daily because I didn't want to have an imbalance for half of the day. Then I stupidly added a 3rd dose because I wasnt feeling any changes. I would like to take 5 mcgs twice a day and raise my Levothroid to 112 but I'm not sure how I can do this. I dont think I can acuratley split my dose into quarters. Hmmmm. I havent taken any Cytomel since I got my labs back..does this mean that in 48 hrs my T3 will be depleted again?
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  #14   ^
Old Thu, Feb-17-05, 13:25
Natrushka Natrushka is offline
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Plan: IF +LC
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Rachel, I don't know where to begin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunshne24
I am taking the T3 6 hours apart 3 times daily starting at 7:30 am. I took the test at about 10 am. I did that intentionally because what I remember reading is that due to fact that T3 is so quick to metabolise you should test within 3 hours of taking your dose.

I don't know where you read that, but it's just not true, Rachel. Yes, it metabolises quickly, but when you take in any exogenous hormone its taken in as a FREE hormone, it takes a good 8 hours for the binding proteins to gobble it up. So you want to test after 8 hours because you want to know how much is not being bound, after binding would happen. This is your body's way of showing you how much it thinks it needs. In your case it was getting FAR too much. I thought your dose was high when you initally posted it, but I assumed that was the doctor's doing.

Quote:
It is not good to have large surges of T3 throughout the day, too much stress on the heart or something like that. Testing within 3 hours will show if this is happening. I suspect if I had waited or skipped a dose these numbers wouldn't look so whack but then I would be unaware of the surges that are occuring due to high amounts of T3.

Large amounts of T3, period, are bad - they are akin to being hyper, which we know is just as unhealthy as being hypo. This 3 hours later rule is very inacurate. T3 has a half life of 48 hours, which means 48 hours after you take it 1/2 of it will still be in your system, and 48 hours after that 1/2 of that will be in your system, and so on. While it degrades faster than T4, it's still going to be there in pretty big amounts. You were adding in more after 3 hours, your FTs would have been sky high. That FT3 reading isn't a 'real' reading, it's not THAT high, but it's high.

Quote:
I am confused I do notice now that I have been waking up at night a little sweaty and feeling my heartbeat loudly. This only happens late at night for some reason and some nights I do not experience it. I think I went overboard with the T3.

I agree. The ratio of T4:T3 in a functioning thyroid gland is 80:20, 80% is T4 and 20% is T3, or there abouts. If you're taking 112mcgs of levoxyl, then you'd be on no more than 22mcgs of T3. Even that might be too much. I suspect that some of your hypot symptoms are really hyper symptoms.

Here's a list of hyper symptoms:
Palpitations
Heat intolerance
Nervousness
Insomnia
Breathlessness
Increased bowel movements
Light or absent menstrual periods
Fatigue

Here's a list of hyper signs:
Fast heart rate
Trembling hands
Weight loss
Muscle weakness
Warm moist skin
Hair loss
Staring gaze

Quote:
My doc wanted me to start out taking 5 mcgs twice daily and I had read that this is the typical dose unless you've had thyroid cancer and are trying to supress TSH.

Higher doses are usually warranted with cancer, you want the TSH supressed, but other than that the amount of T3 is based on your individual needs. Some do well with just 5mcgs, other need 25mcgs.

Quote:
The problem is that he said that dose is currently unavailable, I'm not sure why, but he has not been able to prescribe it recently. He said the smallest dose available would be 25. He wanted me taking 12.5 once a day. I started taking it twice daily because I didn't want to have an imbalance for half of the day. Then I stupidly added a 3rd dose because I wasnt feeling any changes. I would like to take 5 mcgs twice a day and raise my Levothroid to 112 but I'm not sure how I can do this.

Not everyone feels the lag of energy taking their T3 once a day, I don't think you can just cut the T3 out completely - I would taper it off slowly. Omit two of your doses and split the other one, so you're getting 12.5mcgs 1x a day. And of course, get in to see another doctor ASAP. You need to wait at least 10 days on a much lower dose and have your labs run again, and this time no meds w/in 8 hours of your blood draw.

Quote:
I dont think I can acuratley split my dose into quarters.

You can buy a pill splitter at Wal-mart for 4$, it does a very good job of splitting into quarters, Rachel. I'd go out and get one right now!

Quote:
Hmmmm. I havent taken any Cytomel since I got my labs back..does this mean that in 48 hrs my T3 will be depleted again?

No, it takes a full 10 days before it's all gone. Usually 7-8 half lives.

Re osteoporosis, it's an issue if you're undermedicated and overmedicated, but it's correctable by fixing the dose. Too much thyroid is just as dangerous in the long term as too little. You're not 'killing' yourself, but you are jeopardizing your health, and you might be making some of these "hypoT" symptoms worse with this high level of T3; your body just can't handle it.
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  #15   ^
Old Thu, Feb-17-05, 12:57
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fridayeyes fridayeyes is offline
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One word: Armour.

Two words: New Doc.
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