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  #1   ^
Old Fri, Sep-10-04, 10:31
ItsTheWooo's Avatar
ItsTheWooo ItsTheWooo is offline
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Plan: My Own
Stats: 280/118/117.5 Female 5ft 5.25 in
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Default Questioning the efficacy of supplements...

I'm running low on my usual supplements.

I take a EFA pill (300 mg epa, 200 mg dha per pill 2x daily), a complete multivitamin, and a complete multimineral. I like vitaminshoppe brand since it feels like they are decent quality and a good value. My supplements cost typically $60 every 3 months.

Normally I would just rebuy them, but I've been questioning whether or not they actually help with anything. I've always been proud that I'm not the sort to fall into health/diet gimmick and magic pills... but is paying so much for supplements any different than buying a magic heart disease pill?
What got me thinking about this was the fact that the EFA pill does not specify it needs to be refrigerated. If it really were fish oil and high in preformed omega acids like it claims to be, wouldn't it be prone to going rancid?

The supplement industry is so unregulated that I have no idea what is in the pills I buy. Even if the substances in the pills are what they say they are, how do I know it is of any benefit? Who knows if they are metabolized the same way if at all.

Another thing that makes me suspicious is that it vitamins are the easiest way to get rich quick now it seems. Every "diet doctor" out there also has a diet food and supplement line to complement it. Buy buy buy. It's modern day snake oil.

Sorry to sound so cynical about this, but I honestly do not feel any different since starting my supplement regimen (many months ago) so I am just suspicious it is of any benefit. Have omega 3 pills and vitamins been demonstrated to improve any aspect of health at all? If anyone knows where I can see some studies I'd be really interested...
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  #2   ^
Old Fri, Sep-10-04, 10:47
tom sawyer tom sawyer is offline
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Posts: 2,241
 
Plan: Atkins-like
Stats: 215/170/170 Male 70
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Don't take'em myself, for the same reasons you cite. I personally think you'll get what you need from a balanced diet with plenty of unprocessed foods. One way to find out if they make a difference, is to go off them for a few months and see if you feel any different, or if your weight changes. If not, then save that $240/year.

I know that some vitamins are required in very small amounts, and the body can even recycle them. This is why vegetarians can get away for years or even decades without biotin (?) supplements.
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  #3   ^
Old Fri, Sep-10-04, 10:50
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Petrina31 Petrina31 is offline
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Plan: Atkins
Stats: 239/168.2/150 Female 5'7
BF:whoa boy
Progress: 80%
Location: Apex, NC
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I feel the exact same way- that is, very doubtful of the efficacy of supplements. In fact, I stopped taking mine shortly after I started Atkins back in late March. Now, I only bother to take them every so often when I'm not feeling well or if I'm planning to workout.

I just read Dana Carpender's book on lcing and she recommended a whole assortment of supplements to take- and noted that you should look for chelated versions sold in health food stores (rather than the "One A Day" type multivitamins).

Even taking them so sporadically, I still feel fine. Only issue I've been having lately that might be related to this WOE is that I seem to bruise quite easily. I've read that Vitamin K might help, but I haven't had time to get to GNC or Vitamin Shoppe to pick some up.
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  #4   ^
Old Fri, Sep-10-04, 11:01
wcollier wcollier is offline
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Plan: Healthy eating/lifestyle
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Dr. Atkins Vita-Nutrient Solutions is a good place to start. Its full of studies, too numerous to even mention.

You should question the Omega 3 capsules, though. PP don't recommend them. They prefer oil from the bottle such as Carlson's Cod Liver oil, primarily b/c there's no control on the rancidity of the oil in capsules. The only time they allow you to use capsules is if you poke each capsule and taste it for rancidity.

Having said that, I've had good quality, pharmaceutical grade fish oil capsules before and they've always had to be refridgerated.

Wanda
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  #5   ^
Old Fri, Sep-10-04, 11:40
tom sawyer tom sawyer is offline
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Plan: Atkins-like
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Seems like eating a can of sardines once a week, might be simpler and cheaper, if not more tasty.
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  #6   ^
Old Fri, Sep-10-04, 11:44
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Plan: DDF
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I completely agree, Itsthewoo. I'm extremely skeptical yet I want to cover my bases. Sometimes Consumer Reports digs into these things and it is online, so it might be worth the $24 subscription fee to check. After all, one bottle of supplements can easily cost that much.

As skeptical and suspicious as I am, I sometimes take the bait, so to speak. I figure if I get a vitamin that covers 100% of the RDA and take it every other day, I'm might be filling in any gaps. I do not like to take megadoses of anything.

However, occassionally I read an interesting blurb about a supplement in a extract from peer-reviewed journals and then I might try it out.

Glad I'm not the only one feeling mighty skeptical of the claims being made.

I also recently bought a bottle of omega-3 (i.e. fish oil capsules) and wondered why they don't need to be refridgerated.

Can of sardines???? I guess I could try that. Is that one of them acquired tastes?
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  #7   ^
Old Fri, Sep-10-04, 12:26
Kristine's Avatar
Kristine Kristine is offline
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Plan: Primal/P:E
Stats: 171/146/150 Female 5'7"
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Location: Southern Ontario, Canada
Default

Interesting discussion. I was just considering the same issue, since I've just hit leaner times.

Supplements are one of those things that are tough to judge because you don't necessarily see immediate affects or results, either from taking them or suddenly stopping. Unless you're psychic, you'll never know whether or not they've actually prevented a health disaster.

I consider the expense to be like insurance. You could put a lot of money into an insurance policy and never need it. But I consider it money well wasted.

I take a multi, cal/mag, and Udo's Choice oil for omega-3s. I also have some I take irregularly, like vitamin C.
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  #8   ^
Old Fri, Sep-10-04, 12:31
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m1whowaits m1whowaits is offline
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Plan: Schwarzbein Principle II
Stats: 150/129/130 Female 5' 5"
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Location: Virginia Beach, VA
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If you are healthy overall and eat a wide variety of foods, you would probably be fine not taking anything. OTOH if you limit what you eat, you could be missing out on vital nutirents that you may not notice now, but could cause problems when you are older. I OTOH cannot live without my supplements because I have a diminished ability to adsorb nutrients and need to have then in higher dosages than you can get from food alone just to get the amount I need to function.
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  #9   ^
Old Fri, Sep-10-04, 14:06
wcollier wcollier is offline
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Plan: Healthy eating/lifestyle
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Quote:
Seems like eating a can of sardines once a week, might be simpler and cheaper, if not more tasty.
There's no reason why you couldn't eat sardines, but you'd have to get your Omega 3s through more than a once/week can of sardines. Keep your menus full of fatty fish if you don't want to supplement, most people just prefer to take a supplement to make it a bit easier. We used to get plenty of EFAs in organ meats back when animals used to eat grass instead of grains and humans weren't so picky about what they ate. It's not that EFA capsules just became trendy. They became a necessity borne by modernization.

EFAs can't be made by the body so there's no choice in the matter. It's like telling people that they only need to eat protein once a week.

It'sthewoo, here are some good links below - the last 2 are research-based pharmaceutical grade supplement companies that publish research. Unfortunately poor grade supplement companies give reputable companies like them a bad name. I have several books at home that I reference when I want research as well.

Nat has a sticky under the Nutrition & Supplement forum as well if you want to check it out.

Omega 3 Fish Oil
Advanced Orthomolecular Research
Life Extension Foundation

As Liz says, supplements are best for those with health concerns. Myself, I went to a nutritionally oriented doctor who did tests to determine what supplements I needed. If there's a criticism, that's it. How do people know what supplements they need without being tested? Of course, that criticism doesn't apply to antioxidants. If you can afford them, they're well worth it.

Wanda

edit --- BTW, it's ironic that "snake oil" came up. As it is, snake oil was vindicated by Udo Erasmus in his book "Fats that Heal/Fats that Kill. Vindication of Snake Oil

Last edited by wcollier : Fri, Sep-10-04 at 14:25.
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  #10   ^
Old Fri, Sep-10-04, 14:54
cs_carver cs_carver is offline
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Plan: Generic LC with tweaks
Stats: 204/178/165 Female 72 inches
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Default N = 1, is the problem

Whether or not the RDA is useful or meaningful is more a philosophical arguement than factual. Plenty of people with interests on both sides. For today, I do NOT believe the RDA is enough of almost anything, and also for today, my experiments with not taking supplements seem to prove my point.

When I'm not taking major vitamin C, I bruise very easily and this is unacceptable to me. When I don't take the Omega 3 oils, my fingers split at the ends, also nasty, and I assume that if I'm not repairing skin, I'm not repairing nerve tissue either. When I don't take manganese, my back hurts more, and when I take silica, my fingernails are stronger and don't split.

YMMV.

The real problem is that many of the conditions take 20 years to show up. I look at the old ladies around me in this little backwoods town and I don't want to be where there are, when I'm that age. And they've been eating a "balanced diet" for 80 years. Minimal junk food there. But their health is a long way from ideal, IMO.

It's hard to do a real double-blind study when you only have one rat.

Last edited by cs_carver : Fri, Sep-10-04 at 14:55. Reason: add more
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  #11   ^
Old Fri, Sep-10-04, 14:59
tom sawyer tom sawyer is offline
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Plan: Atkins-like
Stats: 215/170/170 Male 70
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Location: Hannibal MO
Default

There are dietary sources for both linoleic and alpha-linoleic acids, in addition to fatty fish. These include dairy (I think), vegetables, fruits, nuts and seeds. Whats more, I read that flaxseed is twice as high in omega-3 fatty acids as fish oil. So it would hardly seem necessary to supplement a diet that includes plenty of these wholesome foods. Of course that is for each person to decide, and I can certainly understand that if a person were to have a particular health status that would benefit from a particular supplement, it would be prudent to take a supplement.

I'll still eat my can of sardines though, in hot sauce or mustard they are tasty. Especially since I read where linoleic acid deficiency causes hair loss among other things. Hmm, maybe I should take those fish pills after all?
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  #12   ^
Old Fri, Sep-10-04, 15:41
wcollier wcollier is offline
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Plan: Healthy eating/lifestyle
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Tom, the problem with flaxseed is that it has to be converted to EPA/DHA in the body and many people lack the enzymes necessary to convert the ALA into a useable form. People with health issues (esp diabetics) and certain nationalities (ie. Inuit, Norwegian, Welsh-Irish, North American Indians etc.) are susceptible. It's something for people to keep in mind.

Dairy is mostly saturated fat and monounsatured. Veggies and fruits have LNA, but I wouldn't rely on them to fulfill my daily needs. Nuts and seeds are a good source, but they have to be eaten in their raw form. Roasted nuts are rancid and contain trans fats if they've been roasted in oil. However, nuts tend to have more Omega 6 than 3s, so they shouldn't be the only source of EFAs. Walnuts are highest in Omega 3.

Enjoy your sardines.

Quote:

It's hard to do a real double-blind study when you only have one rat.


Wanda
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  #13   ^
Old Fri, Sep-10-04, 16:00
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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Posts: 25,842
 
Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: San Diego, CA
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Quote:
It's hard to do a real double-blind study when you only have one rat.


In this case, you need a rat that is blind in both eyes.
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  #14   ^
Old Fri, Sep-10-04, 16:13
HoneyBones's Avatar
HoneyBones HoneyBones is offline
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Plan: Atkins
Stats: 161/-/120 Female 5'4"
BF:27/25/19
Progress: 37%
Location: Rochester, NY
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I take flaxseed capsules, a multi-vitamin, calcium, iron, and vitamin E. I keep them all in the door of my fridge.

A girlfriend of mine recommended vitamin E capsules to help avoid and ease muscle pain due to exercise. I've been exercising regularly and I'm not sore like I used to get, so it might be working.

The other ones... I don't know. If I don't take them for a week I don't really seem to notice a difference in anything other than my complexion. I'm acne prone and these supplements do seem to help with that.

So who knows. I agree with Tom Sawyer that if you eat a lot of "whole" fresh foods that there's probably no need to take supplements. Nature provides most of us with everything we need to be and feel healthy.
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  #15   ^
Old Fri, Sep-10-04, 17:40
cathos5 cathos5 is offline
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Plan: lowcarb hybrid
Stats: 185/150/144 Female 64 inches
BF:
Progress: 85%
Location: NKY
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My doctor suggested fish oil capsules 2X a day because my total chol is high and I won't take "real" medicine (Lipitor, etc.) I told him I already take flax seed but he said that wasn't enough. I guess I'll find out in three more months.

BTW, don't spend that $24 on a subscription to Consumer Reports if you have a library nearby. You can probably use it there for free. Or call the librarian, tell her you need information, and she will pull some articles for you and you can just pick them up (I work at our library and we do stuff like that all the time). Most libraries subscribe to Consumer Reports and lots of other journals, medical and otherwise, as well.
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