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  #1   ^
Old Mon, Feb-29-16, 19:57
CallmeAnn's Avatar
CallmeAnn CallmeAnn is offline
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Plan: HFLC/IF
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Default Is this new? Any comments?

Here is the link.

http://healthyforkswellness.com/art...-insulin-spike/
I know there are tons of vegan writers who bash meat but this is a concrete claim that it actually raises insulin more than sugar. What with Dr. Fung stating that Diabetes is a case of elevated insulin, rather than bg, this got my attention. I know that the rise in bg is a marker for insulin spikes but it's just such a weird claim. Not that I'm worried, but outright lying seems so strange.
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  #2   ^
Old Mon, Feb-29-16, 20:12
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Liz53 Liz53 is offline
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Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
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Location: Washington state
Default

No meat doesn't raise insulin more than sugar. Here's the Insulin Index: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin_index

Meat does raise insulin and it's surprising how much, but it's not more than sugar. Sugar, btw, does not appear on the list, but jellybeans are pretty much all sugar and they score high ~ 160 , way higher than beef ~ 51.

And here's Dr Fung talking about the insulin index:
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/insulin-index/
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  #3   ^
Old Tue, Mar-01-16, 15:43
Dodger's Avatar
Dodger Dodger is offline
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Plan: Paleoish/Keto
Stats: 225/167/175 Male 71.5 inches
BF:18%
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The protein in meat does raise insulin, but it also raises glucagon. The glucagon counteracts the negative effects of insulin.
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  #4   ^
Old Wed, Mar-02-16, 15:13
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Over43 Over43 is offline
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Plan: Atkins 72
Stats: 215/215/170 Male 5' 9"
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One of the misrepresentations of the Atkins Diet is that it is low carb and high protein. Atkins claimed his diet was low carb and high fat. Elevated levels of protein do cause insulin to increase. However, eating higher fat ratios in the diet do not cause this effect.

The brutal combination (which reminds me of my lunch) is the fat/sugar combination. Forty years ago Linus Pauling was talking about this.
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  #5   ^
Old Wed, Mar-02-16, 16:14
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teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
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There's the question of what foods raise insulin the most--and then there's the question of what diet raises insulin the most. Protein and carbohydrate both raise insulin, but dietary protein is essential, where dietary carbohydrate is not.

In the insulin index study Liz posted, lentils have an insulin score of 58, while fish has one of 59. So, these foods are equally insulinogenic... but not really, because if you're looking at insulin per gram of protein, there's less with the fish than with the lentils, because calories were held constant between foods in that study. Take an amount of fish that supplies the same amount of protein as the lentils, and add butter until calories are equal, and you get the same amount of protein with probably less insulin. Fat does increase the insulin secreted per gram of carbohydrate. It also looks to me like it may do the same per gram of protein--if you look at eggs or cheese, these have lower insulin scores than fish, but a higher insulin score per gram of protein. Adding fat calories increases insulin, but replacing protein or carbohydrate with fat will probably reduce it.
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  #6   ^
Old Wed, Mar-02-16, 17:15
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
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Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
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Understanding what teaser explained, you can then look at these very expanded Insulin Index rankings of many foods, to determine what might really raise your insulin.
http://optimisingnutrition.com/the-insulin-index/
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  #7   ^
Old Wed, Mar-02-16, 18:20
M Levac M Levac is offline
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Plan: VLC, mostly meat
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CallmeAnn
Here is the link.

http://healthyforkswellness.com/art...-insulin-spike/
I know there are tons of vegan writers who bash meat but this is a concrete claim that it actually raises insulin more than sugar. What with Dr. Fung stating that Diabetes is a case of elevated insulin, rather than bg, this got my attention. I know that the rise in bg is a marker for insulin spikes but it's just such a weird claim. Not that I'm worried, but outright lying seems so strange.

Insulin spike doesn't tell us anything useful. That's because we don't lose or gain fat during a meal, instead we lose or gain fat in-between meals. The higher the fasting insulin, the slower fat is released; the lower the fasting insulin, the faster fat is released. So, the more pertinent question is what foods cause fasting insulin to stay higher/lower?

If we look at insulin spike, we have to understand what insulin does during that spike. For example, if the spike was caused by carbs, then those carbs will do something different than if the spike was caused by protein. Gary Taubes often explains that when fat cells take in glucose, it gets converted to glycerol, and this glycerol binds to fatty acids to make triglycerides. Triglycerides are too big to go through the fat cell wall, so they're stuck inside. Now if the spike was caused by protein, there's no glucose to convert to glycerol.

We currently believe that protein causes BG to rise because protein gets converted to glucose, but that's a misunderstanding. Dietary protein is not converted to glucose, it's used to build/repair/maintain enzymes and tissues. There's no glucose in protein, so if BG does rise, where does the glucose come from? Well, it comes from the glycogen stored in the liver or other cells, and from glycerol stored as triglycerides stored in fat cells. It can't come from anywhere else.

In fact, insulin inhibits gluconeogenesis, it prevents the production of new glucose in the liver, it prevents the conversion of other substrates into glucose, such as protein-to-glucose (actually only some amino acids, not all of them). And, insulin stimulates proteosynthesis and inhibits proteolysis. So, dietary protein (some amino acids) is not converted to glucose, and dietary protein is pushed by insulin toward new protein production and new tissue production and repair/maintenance.

OK, so protein causes insulin to spike, and insulin causes BG to drop, so we should expect BG to drop, right? But if we see BG rise instead, then protein must have some other effect elsewhere on stored glucose to release it to compensate for the insulin spike. One such effect is on glucagon, which acts on the liver to convert glycogen to glucose, then dump it into the bloodstream, causing BG to rise. There's still the same total amount of glucose, but some of it just shifted from the liver to the bloodstream. Eventually it's gonna shift back to the liver as glucagon drops once there's no need for it anymore. It's gonna shift back also because insulin pushes glucose into the liver, and there's a bit more insulin due to protein. If it's just protein, we haven't changed total glucose or total fat, so once that protein is fully integrated into enzymes and tissues, it's gonna have virtually no effect on stored glucose, BG, and stored fat. But then, since it's only protein, and integration takes time, some of that glucose and fat will invariably be used for fuel during that time, net result is less glucose and less fat.

Now if instead we eat carbs, the whole thing changes. Total glucose goes up, so total insulin must go up to keep BG normal, i.e. to keep stored glucose from leaking out of the liver and from fat cells. Can't convert glucose to protein, and we didn't eat protein, there's a protein deficit, total protein drops. But, insulin also inhibits proteolysis (the breakdown of protein), and there's a bit more insulin to keep BG normal, so this extra insulin compensates somewhat for the dietary protein deficit, it slows down protein losses. There's still a total protein deficit, so overall protein metabolism or even overall metabolism of everything slows down too. Additionally, insulin keeps fat inside fat cells, and there is a bit more insulin to keep BG normal, so this extra insulin slows down fat release, this further slows down overall metabolism of everything. If you think about it, this is actually a good thing because if we keep metabolism up, and there's a protein deficit, protein loss is going to be greater than otherwise, that protein deficit is going to be felt much quicker. Things have to slow down when there's a deficit.

So, between protein and carbs, regardless of the insulin spike, the one most likely to allow fat loss or to allow normal metabolism is protein.

All the above is just how I see it, not necessarily how it actually works, so take it with a grain of salt. On the other hand, that thing with protein/insulin/gluconeogenesis/proteosynthesis is quite positively a sure thing, so we have to stop thinking dietary protein gets converted to glucose cuz it's obviously not true.
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  #8   ^
Old Wed, Mar-02-16, 21:02
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GreekRibs GreekRibs is offline
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Plan: Protein Power
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Over43
One of the misrepresentations of the Atkins Diet is that it is low carb and high protein. Atkins claimed his diet was low carb and high fat. Elevated levels of protein do cause insulin to increase. However, eating higher fat ratios in the diet do not cause this effect.

The brutal combination (which reminds me of my lunch) is the fat/sugar combination. Forty years ago Linus Pauling was talking about this.


So true - many suffer from the misconception Atkins promotes high protein. It does not. I eat the same amount of protein as I would if I wasn't low-carbing. I just eat the right carbs and good fats along with my usual portions of protein.
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  #9   ^
Old Wed, Mar-02-16, 21:17
marty kend marty kend is offline
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Plan: low insulin load
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Default Food insulin index

Thanks for the shout out JEY100.

Greger makes a valid point that protein raises insulin, but fails to note that net carbs raise insulin by twice as much. You also don't see a big rise in BG due to protein unless you're diabetic.

The implication of the food insulin index data is that you need to limit net carbs and moderate protein.

http://optimisingnutrition.com/2015...sus-the-vegans/
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  #10   ^
Old Wed, Mar-02-16, 22:44
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
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In the "a picture is worth a thousand words" department...

The two protein feedings had equal amounts of protein, 30 grams, with enough fat or sucrose to bring the calorie count up to about 500 calories. The fat used was a mix of butter and cream



http://jn.nutrition.org/content/129...pe2=tf_ipsecsha

Last edited by teaser : Wed, Mar-02-16 at 23:00.
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  #11   ^
Old Wed, Mar-02-16, 23:34
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
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Default

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/132....expansion.html

Another relevant graph. In the last graph,
all treatments contained 30 grams of
protein, and it looks like almost all of
the increase in insulin came down to
whether or not the meal contained
sucrose. In this next one, all treatments
contained 25 grams of glucose, either
alone or with roughly 20 grams of protein
as either hydrolyzed pea protein,
hydrolyzed whey protein, or non-hydrolyzed
milk protein. You can see that the pre-digested
(hydrolyzed) proteins caused a greater
increase in insulin than the milk protein.



I find it interesting that the protein
treatments in this study resulted in
a bit of hypoglycemia at the one-hour
mark... that didn't happen in the other
study I posted. Sort of makes me
wonder about advice for avoiding
hypoglycemia like this, fairly mainstream;

http://www.sparkpeople.com/resource...p?id=805&page=2

Quote:
Eating a high protein food
at each meal and snack. Protein-rich
foods include fish, chicken, turkey,
lean beef and pork, tofu, cottage cheese,
cheese, yogurt, milk, eggs, peanut butter,
nuts and seeds. Protein can help to maintain
your blood sugar levels between meals
by delaying how quickly the
carbohydrate is digested.


Eating protein instead of carbohydrate
might be a good way to avoid hypoglycemia,
but I wonder if adding very lean protein might
actually make things worse, sometimes.
(But of course, the glucose used in the
study wouldn't need much in the way of digesting).

Also, 25 grams of glucose, 20 grams
of protein satisfies the "keep meals small"
advice that's supposed to prevent hypoglycemia...

Last edited by teaser : Wed, Mar-02-16 at 23:40.
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  #12   ^
Old Thu, Mar-03-16, 06:24
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,368
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by marty kend
Thanks for the shout out JEY100.

Greger makes a valid point that protein raises insulin, but fails to note that net carbs raise insulin by twice as much. You also don't see a big rise in BG due to protein unless you're diabetic.

The implication of the food insulin index data is that you need to limit net carbs and moderate protein.

http://optimisingnutrition.com/2015...sus-the-vegans/


And thanks for keeping an eye on us so we don't go off the rails here about insulin
Ann, Marty is the Insulin Index man...start at his link about them vegans and follow his articles explaining the different insulin responses.

Marty, there is another thread in the diabetes forum about protein...how much is too much at one sitting? If I fast and only eat dinner, how does insulin respond to a larger serving of protein in one sitting? http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthre...82&page=1&pp=15
If you have addressed that topic, could you add it there. Thanks!
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  #13   ^
Old Thu, Mar-03-16, 08:58
CallmeAnn's Avatar
CallmeAnn CallmeAnn is offline
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Plan: HFLC/IF
Stats: 218/176/140 Female 5'4"
BF:27%
Progress: 54%
Location: Houston area
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by marty kend
Thanks for the shout out JEY100.

Greger makes a valid point that protein raises insulin, but fails to note that net carbs raise insulin by twice as much. You also don't see a big rise in BG due to protein unless you're diabetic.

The implication of the food insulin index data is that you need to limit net carbs and moderate protein.

http://optimisingnutrition.com/2015...sus-the-vegans/


I don't understand what you mean when you say net carbs raise insulin by twice as much. How does that happen from subtracting fiber? Also, the statement that diabetics see a bigger rise in glucose from protein concerns me. Should my diabetic husband be eating less protein than he would if he were just low carbing to lose weight?
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  #14   ^
Old Thu, Mar-03-16, 09:34
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
Default

Protein causes both an increase in insulin and an increase in glucagon. Type one diabetics can't produce insulin--but they still produce glucagon, so they get the glucagon signal to increase glucose production by the liver, but not the insulin that would counter the glucagon's effect of increasing blood glucose. Type II is a little bit different--but the same basic idea can apply, except that the cause is a relative insufficiency of insulin (insulin itself could be quite high, but ineffective) rather than an absolute lack of insulin. Blood glucose is largely determined by the ratio of glucagon to insulin, so differences between individuals in the glucagon and insulin responses will determine whether or not and to what extent protein increases blood glucose. Some people even get a hypoglycemic response to eating protein.

And I think what Marty meant was that net carbohydrate raises insulin twice as much as protein does, you only count the digestible carbohydrate.
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  #15   ^
Old Thu, Mar-03-16, 09:43
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
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Plan: Very LC, Higher Protein
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
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The article referenced in the first post appears to be just another entry from one with a nutrition agenda beyond health. Knocking Paleo or LCHF or any other related WOE is becoming a cottage industry for some of these folks who have an ethical agenda that results in clouding the science of healthy nutrition. Teaser's graphs demonstrate how protein stimulates insulin release compared to carbs. We need to understand more of this, but N=1 experiments in protein consumption by many show that we can definitely control and blunt insulin release with the inclusion of healthy animal proteins as an important part of our diets. We've had a lot of discussions on this forum about protein lately, so it's timely. However, the hue and cry from those who promote a vegan or quasi vegan agenda that includes "ethical" dogma to not eat animals doesn't fit my lifestyle. Further, to try and bend reality to imply that animal protein such as beef or salmon is worse for insulin management than seeds and vegetables is not only wrong, it's irresponsible. When one has an overriding agenda, however, responsibility hardly matters.
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