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  #1   ^
Old Sun, Jun-10-07, 11:21
grbnbpb grbnbpb is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 182
 
Plan: Carb Cycling
Stats: 153/148/125 Female 5'2"
BF:38% / 38% / 28%
Progress: 18%
Location: USA
Default Nausea from flagyl and mepron for tick-borne Disease

Well; ... Friday I sent off for the beginning of my lyme & babesia (another tick-borne disease) medications! After reviewing some of the intensive side effects of mepron, I decided that requesting prayer was in order. I realize this is not a "religious" forum, but other low-carb folks will understand my situation best, and I know I will need super-natural help here.

When I took 6 days of flagyl in February, in order to avoid up-chucking my medication I NEEDED toast before each pill. Now I will be starting probably 6mos medication; beginning with mepron (which ~25% need to drop or limit because of side effects), then ADDING 7 other strong antibiotics, as I can tolerate their added side effects. I don't want to drop from a maintenance low-carb program, but I NEED to get these medications to stay in my system (& not in the up-chuck bucket).

I have gradually upped my carbs to 70g now, and my thought is that maybe I can spend those carbs on the needed toast each morning and evening; the contest is whether I can limit myself to only that small amount of something that I enjoy soooo much!
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  #2   ^
Old Sun, Jun-10-07, 12:28
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 25,843
 
Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: San Diego, CA
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Why toast? I find it hard to believe there's something in toast that you can't find in some other food to keep you from tossing your cookies.

Good luck with your meds, sounds awful. But I'd encourage you to try to find something else to eat with them.
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  #3   ^
Old Sun, Jun-10-07, 12:39
Citruskiss Citruskiss is offline
I've decided
Posts: 16,864
 
Plan: LC
Stats: 235/137.6/130 Female 5' 5"
BF:haven't a clue
Progress: 93%
Default

Flagyl's horrible - I turned up allergic to it (not apparent till I took a second round of it months later for a dental infection), but remember the first time I took it for a stomach bug - not fun side effects.

Peppermint tea helps quite a bit with nausea and upset tummies. Get some - try it before you load up on all the new antibiotics and see if it helps.

As for toast - I'm betting there might be some recipes on these forums for LC toasts/crackers that you could make. Like flax or whatever. I haven't yet looked for something like this because I'm not ready to add that much carb yet to my diet, but you with your 70grams a day might be able to fit this in nicely without having to resort to highly-refined bread products.

Another thing I found rather useful for nausea (minor altitude sickness after returning to Colorado from sea-level Vancouver) - was Pellegrino water. Dunno why it worked so well, but it did. Kind of like the ginger-ale effect without the sugar (or even ginger) it seemed.

Go have a look through the recipe forums and see if you can find a LC bread product that you could make for yourself. I'm sure I've seen people mentioning things like homemade flax bread and so on...

If I see anything like that, I'll be sure to pop back in here and post a link.

Take care, and I really hope you feel better soon.
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  #4   ^
Old Sun, Jun-10-07, 12:42
Citruskiss Citruskiss is offline
I've decided
Posts: 16,864
 
Plan: LC
Stats: 235/137.6/130 Female 5' 5"
BF:haven't a clue
Progress: 93%
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Just took a quick peek into the "Breads and Baked Goods" recipe forum, and am already seeing all kinds of possibilities:

http://forum.lowcarber.org/forumdisplay.php?f=123

Have a good look through there and see if you can find things that might work for you, and if any of it can be frozen for later use - not sure you'll want to be baking all the time if you're dealing with all sorts of medicine and side effects.
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  #5   ^
Old Sun, Jun-10-07, 12:45
Citruskiss Citruskiss is offline
I've decided
Posts: 16,864
 
Plan: LC
Stats: 235/137.6/130 Female 5' 5"
BF:haven't a clue
Progress: 93%
Default

And here's some actual LC bread someone's making with a bread machine:

http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=326655
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  #6   ^
Old Sun, Jun-10-07, 12:51
grbnbpb grbnbpb is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 182
 
Plan: Carb Cycling
Stats: 153/148/125 Female 5'2"
BF:38% / 38% / 28%
Progress: 18%
Location: USA
Default

With flagyl twice a day for 6days, I didn't find ANYTHING that worked other than toast or crackers. Additionally, I need to have the lowest iron content possible, with the highest fat content possible. Several of the medicines only bind to the same neuro-receptors as iron, so anything taken within 4hrs of the medicine needs to be VERY low iron content, and they are fat-soluble so need highest fat content possible. From my quick perusal, that means white bread.

One recommendation was avocado for fat availability, but it doesn't keep from needing a bucket, same with nuts. Those are fine for meds that don't create intensive nausea, but I know with flagyl the bucket was needed at almost exactly 15min, unless a bread product was in my stomach. (I tried pork rinds & I think they would have worked except their smell turned my stomach.)

CitrusKiss: You posted while I was composing. Thanks for the reminder about ginger; I had heard about that and forgotten. I tried peppermint tea last time and it didn't help. Flax is way too high in iron, otherwise my flax crackers would work wonderfully, I think. I'm lookin' ... thanks for the suggestions.
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  #7   ^
Old Sun, Jun-10-07, 13:01
Citruskiss Citruskiss is offline
I've decided
Posts: 16,864
 
Plan: LC
Stats: 235/137.6/130 Female 5' 5"
BF:haven't a clue
Progress: 93%
Default

Hmm...you have my attention with the iron thing. Just out of curiosity, could you clarify for me what you mean about needing a very low-iron content food with your medicine? Are you saying that the medicine won't 'take' if you've eaten something with a lot of iron?

Long story short - I had to reduce my iron consumption (totally unrelated to what we're talking about here), and in the process I learned a few things about iron:

1.- avoid multi-vitamins with iron in them
2. - vitamin C increases the absorption of iron (not many people realize this)
3. - calcium inhibits the absorption of iron
4. - black tea inhibits the absorption of iron
5. - the high-iron in spinach is not the highly absorbable kind (ie. it's non-heme iron, unlike the heme iron found in red meat)
6. - most refined carbohydrates (including that white bread) are made with iron-enriched flour
7. - things like shrimp are very high in iron, perhaps even moreso than red meat

Still not sure what you're getting at with needing low-iron in conjunction with your meds, but I do know that when I was reducing my own iron consumption, drinking black tea with my meals seemed to make a difference, as did calcium supplements. I dropped the multi with the iron in it, and stopped taking so much vitamin C.

PS - on edit - maybe not for your pre-med food snack, but you have me thinking along the lines of homemade chicken/ginger soup....that could be good.
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  #8   ^
Old Sun, Jun-10-07, 13:03
grbnbpb grbnbpb is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 182
 
Plan: Carb Cycling
Stats: 153/148/125 Female 5'2"
BF:38% / 38% / 28%
Progress: 18%
Location: USA
Default

Nancy, I am remembering your bowl muffins. Could I make an almond-based bowl muffin that would stay together without egg (2much iron) & would create the absorbency needed without iron? If so, maybe I could put it under the broiler for the crisp-ness that I think was a factor in holding the nausea at bay. I've got the almond meal, & haven't even tried it on anything yet because my calories needed to be so low.
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  #9   ^
Old Sun, Jun-10-07, 13:09
grbnbpb grbnbpb is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 182
 
Plan: Carb Cycling
Stats: 153/148/125 Female 5'2"
BF:38% / 38% / 28%
Progress: 18%
Location: USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Citruskiss
Hmm...you have my attention with the iron thing. Just out of curiosity, could you clarify for me what you mean about needing a very low-iron content food with your medicine? Are you saying that the medicine won't 'take' if you've eaten something with a lot of iron?


Basically, yes. The iron neuro-receptors must be empty (but hungry?) in order for the medicine to work; otherwise the chemicals go thru the system without any effect.

THANK YOU so much for the helpful info; if vitamin C increases the absorption of iron, then it would probably also increase the absorption of the chemical in my meds, and calcium & black tea would probably interfere with that absorption also. Very important info!
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  #10   ^
Old Sun, Jun-10-07, 14:09
grbnbpb grbnbpb is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 182
 
Plan: Carb Cycling
Stats: 153/148/125 Female 5'2"
BF:38% / 38% / 28%
Progress: 18%
Location: USA
Default What are Neuro-Receptors?

Maybe I should clarify what neuro-receptors are:

In cell biology, the receptor is a structure on the surface of a cell (or inside a cell) that selectively receives and binds a specific substance. There are many receptors.

To take an example, there is substance P, a molecule that acts as a messenger for the sensation of pain (those of us with FMS/CFS have an over-abundance of substance P). The receptor for substance P is a unique harbor on the cell surface where substance P docks. Without this receptor, substance P cannot dock and cannot deliver its message of pain.

Putting it very simplistically: In my case, there is a receptor for chemicals that include those similar to iron; where these chemicals dock and deliver. If iron has filled that receptor, other chemicals that are similar are not able to deliver their cargo. Among those chemicals similar to iron are at least one of my medications.

For a more technical definition see http://www.answers.com/topic/receptor .
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  #11   ^
Old Sun, Jun-10-07, 14:26
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 25,843
 
Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: San Diego, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by grbnbpb
Nancy, I am remembering your bowl muffins. Could I make an almond-based bowl muffin that would stay together without egg (2much iron) & would create the absorbency needed without iron? If so, maybe I could put it under the broiler for the crisp-ness that I think was a factor in holding the nausea at bay. I've got the almond meal, & haven't even tried it on anything yet because my calories needed to be so low.

Can you have either the yolk or white? I doubt it'll stick together if you don't have egg. You might try using a gum like xantham or agar but the egg protein is what really binds it together. It'd probably end up like porridge, which might not be bad!
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  #12   ^
Old Mon, Jul-23-07, 11:39
alliebridg alliebridg is offline
New Member
Posts: 6
 
Plan: Modified Atkins/Alkaline
Stats: 178.8/176.4/132 Female 67
BF:
Progress:
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When I took Mepron my doctor told me I must take it with fat--a fatty meal or something--in order for it to absorb properly. So, if you just take it with toast, it probably won't absorb well and you won't be getting its benefits.

I can't speak for Flagyl because I've never taken it. I'm on an herbal regimen for Lyme now (Samento, Cumanda, and many others, detox herbs). If the antibiotics are too harsh for you, maybe your doc can switch you to herbs. Just a thought.

Good luck!
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  #13   ^
Old Tue, Jul-24-07, 07:52
grbnbpb grbnbpb is offline
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Posts: 182
 
Plan: Carb Cycling
Stats: 153/148/125 Female 5'2"
BF:38% / 38% / 28%
Progress: 18%
Location: USA
Default Mepron's Fat Solubility

Allie,
I guess the manufacturer's original recommendation was for over 20g. fat with each dose (but there was too much of a fuss so they rephrased the requirements).

I take the toast with flagyl, doxy, and the herbals of artemisinin and Grapefruit Seed Extract (both flagyl and doxy, even individually, make me vomit within the hour so I take 1slice raisin bread with them). Then, two hours later I take mepron and zithromax with hamburger gravy in am, & whatever else hi-fat I can find in pm. The low carber database has been very valuable for summing those meal's fat so that I can make sure I get over 20g. on each dosage.

As you can guess, after no food for 2hrs before the nausea from flagyl and doxy, then no food for 2hrs before the mepron, my hypoglymia is in high gear long before I take the mepron, and any fat at all is questionable.

Also, the nausea from mepron seems to affect me much differently than that of flagyl and doxy; it isn't as extreme but it lasts for a LONG time. Additionally, most meats make me even more nauseous. Fruits and vegetables seem to settle best. Surprisingly, even the smell of my old mainstay, home-made eggnog, turns my stomach.

When did you take mepron and what were the results?
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  #14   ^
Old Wed, Jul-25-07, 09:30
alliebridg alliebridg is offline
New Member
Posts: 6
 
Plan: Modified Atkins/Alkaline
Stats: 178.8/176.4/132 Female 67
BF:
Progress:
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I forgot about that. I could NOT eat meat, hamburger, etc. while on antibiotics. It definitely made me feel nauseated.

My doc recommended an alkaline diet. So this basically means limiting meat products. I ate my protein in the form of whey protein powder (in shakes) and upped the salads and veggies.

I didn't take 20g of fat with the Mepron. I didn't know that that much was required. I would just eat something fatty--some guacamole, or a protein shake with coconut oil and cream in it. I found that taking the antibiotics with a shake really did help to coat my stomach and I wouln't get nauseated.

I was on Mepron for about three months last fall until I got a stomach bug--intestinal distress--so my Lyme doc switched me to herbals. I was on three other antibiotics at the same time as Mepron--biaxin/plaquenil combination, as well as Ceftin. They really did help.

So now, my doc is concentrating on detoxing me from the antibiotics as well as getting rid of whatever residual Lyme (and babesia) bacteria may be left, using herbs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grbnbpb
Additionally, most meats make me even more nauseous. Fruits and vegetables seem to settle best.
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  #15   ^
Old Wed, Jul-25-07, 10:20
grbnbpb grbnbpb is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 182
 
Plan: Carb Cycling
Stats: 153/148/125 Female 5'2"
BF:38% / 38% / 28%
Progress: 18%
Location: USA
Default Your Symptom Improvement Timeline

Thank you; it's so great to talk with someone low-carb & also with tick-borne complications!

My Dr is questioning whether I actually have lyme/babesia since in three weeks I haven't seen any positive changes in my symptoms. Additionally, he says the worsening of my peripheral neuropathy could be just more medication side effects, and not herx at all. He told me that if there are no symptom improvements before my next appointment (at 7wks from beginning treatment) then he will be suggesting I drop the meds.

Consequently, I am looking for some perspective in the symptom improvement timeline of others; is it reasonable to EXPECT symptom improvement within 7 wks? What did you experience?
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