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  #1   ^
Old Sun, Nov-26-17, 05:07
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
Posts: 13,370
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
Default Paleo vs. Keto What's the difference?

New article by Phinney and Volek.
New study results why Keto reduces inflammation.
Detailed comparison of these diets.

http://blog.virtahealth.com/paleo-v...the-difference/
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  #2   ^
Old Sun, Nov-26-17, 07:17
tess9132 tess9132 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 873
 
Plan: general lc
Stats: 214/146/130 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 81%
Default

Thanks Janet! You’re the best. I wanted to come on here over Thanksgiving and tell you how grateful I am for your links, but time got away from me. I really do appreciate them.
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  #3   ^
Old Mon, Nov-27-17, 04:00
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
Posts: 13,370
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
Default

You are most welcome, Tess.
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  #4   ^
Old Mon, Nov-27-17, 21:55
inflammabl's Avatar
inflammabl inflammabl is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,371
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 296/220/205 Male 71 inches
BF:25%?
Progress: 84%
Location: Upstate SC
Default

In the past P&V have said that if the sum of all your ketones is above 0.2nM then you're in ketosis. Now they say that Paleo gets BHOB alone all the way up to 0.2-0.3nM but "a Paleo diet seems to be purposefully designed to prevent" nutritional ketosis. Frankly I'm past tired of their shifting definitions.
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  #5   ^
Old Tue, Nov-28-17, 05:33
cotonpal's Avatar
cotonpal cotonpal is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 5,283
 
Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/125/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 109%
Location: Vermont
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by inflammabl
In the past P&V have said that if the sum of all your ketones is above 0.2nM then you're in ketosis. Now they say that Paleo gets BHOB alone all the way up to 0.2-0.3nM but "a Paleo diet seems to be purposefully designed to prevent" nutritional ketosis. Frankly I'm past tired of their shifting definitions.


My sense of it all is that the advice keeps changing because the knowledge base keeps growing. For the most part I have stopped chasing ketones and instead concentrate on keeping my carbs low enough so that my bg stays under 100 at all times. I let my ketones take care of themselves. I figure that if I keep glucose low my body as no choice but to produce ketones. If I had cancer or epilepsy I would act differently. Is this the optimal way of doing things? Who knows? I suspect it's beneficial. All signs point to that so I am satisfied.

When I first started eating low carb I followed Dr Bernstein but made it paleo. I've always looked at paleo as more about what not to eat than what you have to eat. For me that meant I didn't eat any fruit except for a few berries and I controlled the amount of nuts and seeds I ate, all to keep the carb count low without venturing into non-paleo food sources. What messed me up, to a great degree, was adding some dairy back in, a non-paleo food and one my body doesn't tolerate. I also don't tolerate eggs and chicken, definitely paleo food. Sometimes it makes sense to follow a plan precisely and other times it makes more sense to figure out what works best for you, using some general principles and trying to understand the science so you don't screw things up for yourself. Be smart. Don't give up thinking. Incorporate the wisdom provided by others with your own wisdom of what your particular body needs and doesn't need.

Jean
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  #6   ^
Old Tue, Nov-28-17, 22:16
inflammabl's Avatar
inflammabl inflammabl is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,371
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 296/220/205 Male 71 inches
BF:25%?
Progress: 84%
Location: Upstate SC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cotonpal
My sense of it all is that the advice keeps changing because the knowledge base keeps growing.



> P&V are scientists.
> Scientists use data to make their judgments.

Where is their data?
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  #7   ^
Old Mon, Mar-19-18, 06:36
sks23cu sks23cu is offline
New Member
Posts: 15
 
Plan: zero-carb ketogenic
Stats: 205/168/160 Male 66.5 inches
BF:
Progress: 82%
Location: Westford, MA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by inflammabl
> P&V are scientists.
> Scientists use data to make their judgments.

Where is their data?

https://www.virtahealth.com/research
-> https://doi.org/10.1007/s13300-018-0373-9

Last edited by sks23cu : Mon, Mar-19-18 at 07:21.
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  #8   ^
Old Mon, Mar-19-18, 11:24
inflammabl's Avatar
inflammabl inflammabl is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,371
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 296/220/205 Male 71 inches
BF:25%?
Progress: 84%
Location: Upstate SC
Default



I call shenanigans.

The first link has no data on ketones. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada. The null set. In fact, it's not even a paper. It's just a web page.

At least the second link is a paper. Unfortunately it also has no data on ketones.

Sorry. You fail.

“In God we trust. All others must bring data.”

So to lose shenanigans, post a link with data on ketones. Lots of data. I just want data. No emotions. No virtue signalling. No change of subject. No cartoons. Data. Just data. Bring data. Quote the data.
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  #9   ^
Old Mon, Mar-19-18, 11:29
inflammabl's Avatar
inflammabl inflammabl is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,371
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 296/220/205 Male 71 inches
BF:25%?
Progress: 84%
Location: Upstate SC
Default

Let me offer an example. Here's a link to the paper P&V hang their hat on. https://www.dropbox.com/s/ozbkbj6j3...sponse.pdf?dl=0

Note that there is NO DATA on the optimal level of ketosis. None.
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  #10   ^
Old Sat, Mar-24-18, 10:42
inflammabl's Avatar
inflammabl inflammabl is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,371
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 296/220/205 Male 71 inches
BF:25%?
Progress: 84%
Location: Upstate SC
Default

Here is Steve Phinney promoting his flimflammery, https://optimisingnutrition.com/201...e-relationship/ . Drill down to his papers and you'll find there is no basis for an optimal level of ketosis and Dr's Atkins and Westman should be respected over P&V.

Last edited by inflammabl : Sat, Mar-24-18 at 10:47.
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  #11   ^
Old Mon, Mar-26-18, 07:45
sks23cu sks23cu is offline
New Member
Posts: 15
 
Plan: zero-carb ketogenic
Stats: 205/168/160 Male 66.5 inches
BF:
Progress: 82%
Location: Westford, MA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by inflammabl

Lots of info!
I don't worry about my ketone blood levels. I do have a Ketonix that I used to get a qualitative idea of my glucose levels early on. But now that I've gone full zero carb (no plants) I don't bother anymore. Especially since the hard medical results are remission of: obesity, T2 diabetes, high volume metastatic prostate cancer, acid reflux, ...
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  #12   ^
Old Thu, May-17-18, 13:02
NoCarbMica NoCarbMica is offline
New Member
Posts: 17
 
Plan: Slow Carb
Stats: 110/110/125 Female 5"0'
BF:26%
Progress: 0%
Location: Houston, TX
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sks23cu
Lots of info!
I don't worry about my ketone blood levels. I do have a Ketonix that I used to get a qualitative idea of my glucose levels early on. But now that I've gone full zero carb (no plants) I don't bother anymore. Especially since the hard medical results are remission of: obesity, T2 diabetes, high volume metastatic prostate cancer, acid reflux, ...


How hard was it for you to go full zero carb? I was also thinking about a ketonix, was the data accurate in your opinion? I have so many questions. The health benefits alone of full zero carb are absolutely incredible, thank you.
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  #13   ^
Old Wed, May-16-18, 07:33
Mayflowers's Avatar
Mayflowers Mayflowers is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 591
 
Plan: Atkins/LC
Stats: 205/150/150 Female 5'5"
BF:35
Progress: 100%
Location: Jersey Girl
Default

I couldn't stick to paleo. Too many carbs, I kept getting cravings. I like LCHF much better. My BP dropped to 102/69 within 2 months from 137/97, and I feel better on LCHF. Also not being a big fruit fan, I don't eat that much fruit.. just berries I like. I've lost more weight, practically none on paleo. Its slow because I'm over 55. But I think LCHF is the healthiest diet and paleo could lead to diabetes with all the starchy vegetables and tons of fruit allowed. Not healthy
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  #14   ^
Old Wed, May-16-18, 07:43
cotonpal's Avatar
cotonpal cotonpal is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 5,283
 
Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/125/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 109%
Location: Vermont
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayflowers
I couldn't stick to paleo. Too many carbs, I kept getting cravings. I like LCHF much better. My BP dropped to 102/69 within 2 months from 137/97, and I feel better on LCHF. Also not being a big fruit fan, I don't eat that much fruit.. just berries I like. I've lost more weight, practically none on paleo. Its slow because I'm over 55. But I think LCHF is the healthiest diet and paleo could lead to diabetes with all the starchy vegetables and tons of fruit allowed. Not healthy


I describe my way of eating as low carb paleo. I follow a paleo diet but I remove all fruit. I have even removed berries because I would tend to eat too many. I have always considered a paleo diet to be more about what not to eat than about what you have to eat.
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  #15   ^
Old Thu, May-17-18, 08:53
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
Default

I flipped through Atkins 72 earlier reading the bits on ketosis. I'm not sure who to agree with.

I mean, he stresses that purple is good and to try to stay in ketosis, but just what shade of purple he was hoping for is a little blurry to me.

Can't find my DANDR, but I seem to remember some troubleshooting sections where he talks about what to do if the weight's not coming off, or you're not losing inches, or you're not in ketosis--with the second two sort of being signs that a person might be on the right course, even if the scale wasn't willing to admit it.




This Phinney/Volek graph--I've heard Westman in recent videos saying yeah, well, this seemed like a good idea at the time, but he doesn't really think it makes sense to place optimal nutritional ketosis where it is on the graph. I seem to do better shifted somewhat to the right. That involves keeping my protein not too high above requirements. What if I had to lower my protein to below requirement to achieve the same ketones? A level of ketosis that actually required me to be deficient in protein, it's hard to see that as optimal. Not a very elaborate thought experiment, but it's good enough for me to shrug and say that optimal ketosis is probably pretty personal.
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