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  #1   ^
Old Thu, Jul-18-19, 08:20
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Default anti-keto opinion piece

Quote:
The Ketogenic Diet for Obesity and Diabetes—Enthusiasm Outpaces Evidence


Just an opinion piece by three plant-based physicians (googled their names with PCRM to ascertain this).



https://jamanetwork.com/journals/ja...article/2737919

Quote:
Is the ketogenic diet more effective for weight loss than other diets? In a meta-analysis of 13 studies lasting longer than a year, researchers found that the ketogenic diet was associated with less than a kilogram of additional weight loss over high-carbohydrate, low-fat strategies.1 This difference, although statistically significant, may not be clinically significant. Furthermore, a meta-analysis of 32 controlled feeding studies found that energy expenditure and fat loss were greater with low-fat diets compared with ketogenic diets.2

Any diet that results in weight loss does so because it reduces calorie intake. The ketogenic diet, when used for weight loss, is no different. The salient questions are whether it is sustainable and whether it promotes long-term health. No studies, to our knowledge, have evaluated ketogenic diets for cardiovascular events or mortality, although observational studies in the broader low-carbohydrate diet literature suggest increased all-cause mortality.3


Any diet that results in weight loss does so because it reduces calorie intake... they always say this like it's a truism. Calories are hard to count in humans, the insistence is that people lie in food journals, or at least are poor chroniclers. I resemble this remark--I can journal for a few days at most before I lose interest. But then I end up just eating what I've plugged into Cronometer, the same meals every day for half a year, so I pretty much know how much I'm eating anyways. But you take animals, you know exactly what you feed them, their in a cage, you're weighing every morsel--and it doesn't work out that way, the same calories, different macros etc. very often results in different outcomes.

At any rate what isn't usually mentioned when this objection is made, or I'm biased and it just seems this way, anyways, they didn't mention at least this one time the difference between somebody holding down their food consumption while their appetite screams for more food and somebody just spontaneously eating less calories when it's bacon and bun-free hamburgers versus whole grain spaghetti with a vegan marinara sauce.

Also the broader low carb literature they refer to is the non-low carb literature. When ordering a triple cheese burger with large fries and a milkshake puts you in the lowest carb group, you're not actually low carb. You're just on a high carb diet and also eating a lot of meat. Low carb foods aren't an antidote to a sugary diet, they're a replacement.

Quote:
In terms of the risk-benefit balance of the ketogenic diet, the potential adverse effects may give one pause. A review of the literature6,7 on ketogenic diets for the treatment of pediatric epilepsy reveals multiple adverse effects, ranging from the relatively benign but inconvenient “keto flu,” an induction period of fatigue, weakness, and gastrointestinal disturbances, to the less common but deadlier occurrence of cardiac arrhythmias from selenium deficiency. Other documented adverse effects include nephrolithiasis, constipation, halitosis, muscle cramps, headaches, diarrhea, restricted growth, bone fractures, pancreatitis, and multiple vitamin and mineral deficiencies.


Formula ketogenic diets have a poor history. Purified diets are a good way to discover before unknown vitamin and mineral requirements. Go ahead and put an animal based ketogenic diet using whole foods into Cronometer. Just six ounces of beef, pork, or six eggs gives from 40 to 70 grams of protein, and from 120 to about 200 percent the daily selenium value. That's with a 2000 calorie diet--so this isn't even a problem on a very strict 4:1 ketogenic ratio--if it's with real meat or eggs as the protein source.

What if I pulled out some early formula diet studies to prove that a mixed diet is deadly? Why would you take me seriously? One misstep in baby formula used palm oil to better approach the fatty acid profile in mother's milk. Problem was there was a slight difference in the triglyceride profile. Enzymes for digesting triglycerides from mother's milk "expect" the fatty acids--say, oleic, palmitic, palmitic--to be in a certain order on the glycerin backbone. A different arrangement in palm oil made for poorer digestion, and the undigested oil tended to form undigestible soaps with calcium. Kids got rickets from this formula. This was a non-ketogenic formula. So, non-ketogenic diets are overrated and suck. Maybe I'm constructing a strawman. Let our strawman armies have at it.
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  #2   ^
Old Thu, Jul-18-19, 09:51
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Plan: atkins
Stats: 247/217/153 Female 5'8"
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I do think people CAN drop weight by eating a plant based diet..... and overall eating fewer calories is the bottom line. HOWEVER, I cannot do it. I cannot eat plant based as it takes more will power than I have.

WHen I Did DANDR, almost 2 decades ago, it was my FIRST success with dropping weight. KETO.

I need EASY.

( Besides, meats have nutrients that plants cannot replace adequately.)

THis argument presented above is the beginning of what is to come as the human population continues to escalate in the near future.
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  #3   ^
Old Thu, Jul-18-19, 10:27
Sniggle Sniggle is offline
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Plan: General Low Carb
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Most diets require that you accept being hungry....really hungry. Yes, you will lose if you create a calorie deficit by only eating the prescribed weight watcher meals...a fate worse than death.

I can eat bacon and eggs for breakfast, steak and salad for lunch, and similar for dinner, and still slowly loss or maintain at a good level. No hunger (craving now and again, but that is not hunger).

I was skeptical when I 1st tried keto 15 years ago, but it worked great.

As someone stated, the only real way to do this study would be to put the subjects in cages for a year, and feed them measured amounts of food. Any study that does not have 24/7 monitoring of the subject is invalid, because the subjects will cheat and lie.
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  #4   ^
Old Thu, Jul-18-19, 11:53
CityGirl8 CityGirl8 is offline
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Plan: Protein Power, IF
Stats: 238/204/145 Female 5'8"
BF:53.75%/46.6%/25%
Progress: 37%
Location: PNW
Default

Quote:
Any diet that results in weight loss does so because it reduces calorie intake. The ketogenic diet, when used for weight loss, is no different. The salient questions are whether it is sustainable and whether it promotes long-term health.
I agree with this. I just don't think that "being hungry....really hungry," as Sniggle so aptly said, is sustainable. And I don't think that eating a ton of carbs, jacking up your blood sugar all the time and destroying your insulin metabolism and your energy burning metabolism is healthy.

Also, lots of the side effects they're talking about either disappear after a couple of months once people adapt to this healthier way of eating (and in the process get rid of the side effects of a high carb diet like inflammation, high BG, fatty liver, etc.) or are related only to strict medically ketogenic diets, such as the ones prescribed for epilepsy. In children, these diets are too low protein and can have some problematic effects. In older adults, low protein can also be a problem.

But what people are popularly calling "keto" is really just a low-carb diet of the sort that's been around for decades. As Drs. Mike and Mary Dan Eades made clear in Protein Power, low carb diets should not be low protein.
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  #5   ^
Old Thu, Jul-18-19, 12:13
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
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I really don't agree with the statement. Leaving aside issues of basal metabolism I think type of calories eaten can and does have an effect on exercise. Whether we're motivated to exercise, whether we're likely to continue once we've started, whether we're likely to be up and about whether it's formal exercise or not. On the same calories, I can be sluggish or bouncing off the walls. I'm not talking about performance, it's possible if I were to do a carb up I'd end up increasing my maximum deadlift or something. But I might be less likely to want to work out in the first place.
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  #6   ^
Old Thu, Jul-18-19, 12:41
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Plan: atkins
Stats: 247/217/153 Female 5'8"
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I definitely feel more energized on lc/ keto, NO question. NONE. Night and day. Brain zings along at a better pace too--more like a freight train flying across the plains, rather than " I think I can, I think I can" of the Engine That Could BARELY get up a steep hill.

THe body's aches and pains deminish rather quickly, and then Bamm, Im zipping around the house this summer like never before... and spend hours puttering in the garden. SAD diet would never allow for such exercise.

See Dr. Bikmans work for muscle work and exercise. He studies the athletes. IF not him another researcher. THese are the super marathoners that depend entirely on ketosis to fuel the body for 100 mile runs, for 25 hour runs.

Sounds like torture to me. I get shin splints---

ANy way, there is research on HUMANs and how the muscles use energy.

The researcher talks about when he is ready to do another study, many of the top world athlete are already on a waiting list to see how their training is working. Very cool stuff.

As for vegetarian and vegan, no one really mentions the side effects and problems associated with these. Seems there are no work arounds for a few of the issues expect to add real meat back into the diet.

Looking around the world, there are no tribal groups that willingly eat a vegetarian diet. Most are hunter- gatherers. As populations increase and the wild life decreases, getting enough animal protein declines. Animal protein becomes the limiting dietary factor. Which is why native peoples in ______, cut down bamboo and let it sit for weeks. IT is tested by banging on it like a drum along the length, gently. IT is the test for how full the inside is--- an insect has left its eggs and the larvae are growing.

While this is not appealing to those of us that have not been brought up on such a traditional food, this is a main source of protein for these people. The grubs are gathered up and lightly roasted. THe children gobble these up like popcorn.

( Talked with DH about this just the other nite. If someone handed me a roasted larvae I would definitely try it AS LONG AS I DIDNT KNOW what it was.)

I'm firmly in the camp that our health is optimized by including animal proteins.

Also, was chewing this subject over for a while. Historically, we could eat more grains and high car berries, fruit and roots. Because many days were in natural fasting ( aka starvation) because of lack of food. Even stored food must be stretched out to last until the next harvest. Our food supply would last much better if everyone around the world, esp rich nations, followed fasting protocols.

Can you imagine instead of, or in addition to Meatless Mondays, we adopted Fasting Friday??
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  #7   ^
Old Thu, Jul-18-19, 14:52
Bob-a-rama's Avatar
Bob-a-rama Bob-a-rama is offline
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Posts: 1,218
 
Plan: Keto (Atkins Induction)
Stats: 230/179/185 Male 5' 11"
BF:
Progress: 113%
Location: Florida
Default

If there was one diet plan that worked for everybody, there would only need to be one diet book ever written.

I've seen some thin vegetarians, but most of them are heavy.

But then same goes for omnivores.

Keto works for a lot of us. It definitely works for me and I tried a few other ways to lose weight and be healthy before I found Atkins.

I could never get past induction without gaining weight. 20 carbs is my max.

Right now I'm 5 pounds under my target weight (the overweight line for my height), on zero prescriptions, and have the heart/circulatory system of a man 20 years my junior per a heard doctor.

That's enough for me.

Bob
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  #8   ^
Old Thu, Jul-18-19, 16:07
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DaisyDawn DaisyDawn is offline
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Plan: lc
Stats: 178/123.6/130 Female 66
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Progress: 113%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniggle
Most diets require that you accept being hungry....really hungry. Yes, you will lose if you create a calorie deficit by only eating the prescribed weight watcher meals...a fate worse than death.

I can eat bacon and eggs for breakfast, steak and salad for lunch, and similar for dinner, and still slowly loss or maintain at a good level. No hunger (craving now and again, but that is not hunger).

I was skeptical when I 1st tried keto 15 years ago, but it worked great.

As someone stated, the only real way to do this study would be to put the subjects in cages for a year, and feed them measured amounts of food. Any study that does not have 24/7 monitoring of the subject is invalid, because the subjects will cheat and lie.


I made it 6 years into maintenance doing this, outpacing most dieters who end up re-gaining within a year or two. I think I'm just more stubborn than most people But yeah, there was that constant hunger in the background-I woke up with it, I went to bed with it, I felt it right after my meals, it sucked and after 6 years I was completely exhausted and just couldn't do it anymore. I hit my 6 year maintenance anniversary in April and I was at my lowest point in the process-mentally I had hit a wall hard and subsequently started to see weight creep.

Transitioning to a HFLC way of eating has completely changed the game-I no longer have that hunger following me around all day, I no longer obsess about food and numbers (calories, macros, TDEE etc etc). I eat until full and then I get on with my day, it has completely changed maintenance for me!
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  #9   ^
Old Fri, Jul-19-19, 08:01
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
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Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
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Location: Herndon, VA
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Keto works for me. I don't proselytize to encourage others because I believe there are other healthy WOEs can be very effective. Agree with Bob, and I've had the same experiences.
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  #10   ^
Old Fri, Jul-19-19, 09:16
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JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,155
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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Dr Scher had some good counter points:
https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb...tpaces-evidence
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  #11   ^
Old Fri, Jul-19-19, 10:29
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Posts: 13,576
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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The carnivore advocates have gotten to me a little bit in that when I read Scher saying;

Quote:
For instance, they refer to the keto diet as requiring followers to “forgo nearly all carbohydrates.” I would have phrased this as allowing followers to “eat almost endless amounts of above-ground veggies as their source of real-food, natural carbohydrates.”


my immediate thought is yes, some keto advocates, some versions of keto. But my personal bias at this point--there may be some value to those deep leafy greens etc., but the most nutritious part of the diet is mostly the animal foods. Also I follow a genuinely ketogenic diet--I actually care that it probably has me throwing lots of ketones, so limitless above ground veggies would still drive my carbohydrate intake way too high. We don't need a fig leaf (are fig leaves edible?) to cover up the shame of eating a diet that's high in meat.

Can't wait to see how the Daily Mail covers this story...
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  #12   ^
Old Sat, Jul-20-19, 08:53
Bob-a-rama's Avatar
Bob-a-rama Bob-a-rama is offline
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Posts: 1,218
 
Plan: Keto (Atkins Induction)
Stats: 230/179/185 Male 5' 11"
BF:
Progress: 113%
Location: Florida
Default

I consider myself an omnivore.

The only true vegetarians are Vegans, everyone else who calls themselves a vegetarian is really an omnivore with a picky eating habit.

I do keto, I'm an omnivore with a picky eating habit. True I eat a lot of animal products but I eat nuts, olives, and other plant based foods to.

To be a carnivore means an animal (such as a dog, fox, crocodile, or shark) that feeds primarily or exclusively on animal matter. I don't think many of us are carnivores, and it's OK if you are.

People need to get their labels correct if we are going to communicate efficiently.

And yes, I'm OK with being a picky eater omnivore.

Bob
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  #13   ^
Old Sat, Jul-20-19, 09:41
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Posts: 13,576
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
Default

A carnivore is just an animal that eats meat--not exclusively meat. So an omnivore is a carnivore. Just not an exclusive carnivore.

Have to be careful with some plants, because my silly cat doesn't understand carnivory well enough to keep from poisoning herself.
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  #14   ^
Old Sat, Jul-20-19, 10:45
Bob-a-rama's Avatar
Bob-a-rama Bob-a-rama is offline
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Posts: 1,218
 
Plan: Keto (Atkins Induction)
Stats: 230/179/185 Male 5' 11"
BF:
Progress: 113%
Location: Florida
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Omnivore:

In school, I learned 3, herbivore, omnivore and carnivore: and carnivores didn't or rarely ate plant matter. Yes I know domestic cats do, and wild ones might eat some grass to choke up a hair ball, but that's about it.

an organism that eats both plant and animal matter
(Cambridge English Dictionary)

one that is omnivorous.
(Merriam Webster)
feeding on both animal and vegetable substances (def of omnivorous in M Webster)

An organism that eats both plants and animals.
(American Heritage Dictionary)

(Zoology) an omnivorous person or animal
(Collins English Dictionary)

someone or something that is omnivorous.
(Random House Dictionary)
omnivorous from above dictionary. Eating food of any kind, including animals and plants.

an animal or person that eats food of both plant and animal origin.
(Google)

An omnivore is a kind of animal that eats either other animals or plants.
(Northwestern University)

An omnivore (/ˈɒmnɪvɔːr/) is an animal that has the ability to eat and survive on both plant and animal matter.[3] Obtaining energy and nutrients from plant and animal matter, omnivores digest carbohydrates, protein, fat, and fiber, and metabolize the nutrients and energy of the sources absorbed
(Wikipedia)

an animal that eats both plants and meat. An animal that only eats plants is called a herbivore and an animal that only eats meat is called a carnivore.
(MacMillan Dictionary)
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  #15   ^
Old Sat, Jul-20-19, 11:05
CityGirl8 CityGirl8 is offline
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Posts: 756
 
Plan: Protein Power, IF
Stats: 238/204/145 Female 5'8"
BF:53.75%/46.6%/25%
Progress: 37%
Location: PNW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
my immediate thought is yes, some keto advocates, some versions of keto. But my personal bias at this point--there may be some value to those deep leafy greens etc., but the most nutritious part of the diet is mostly the animal foods. Also I follow a genuinely ketogenic diet--I actually care that it probably has me throwing lots of ketones, so limitless above ground veggies would still drive my carbohydrate intake way too high. We don't need a fig leaf (are fig leaves edible?) to cover up the shame of eating a diet that's high in meat.
I have similar thoughts when I hear people trying sell how much lettuce we're allowed to eat. I eat vegetables and I like them. Some days I wish there was a bit more wiggle room in my diet for some more green beans and I hope there is eventually. Fruit, too, which for now is just a few berries. But, yes, I really want to stop hearing people trying to cover up that we eat "a lot" of meat. I do eat a wide variety of food and manage to do that while "foregoing almost all carbohydrates"--and while eating a lot of ribeyes.

I don't think people really understand what giving up most carbohydrates means and I think Scher was probably trying to clarify. Some people think it means giving up potatoes and dessert, but oatmeal is okay, right? Other people think it means just eating meat and you're not "allowed" to eat vegetables. It's really confusing for a lot of people. But Scher's phrasing doesn't clear that up. Maybe something like "followers forego almost all carbohydrates, eating diets that can be rich in a wide variety of vegetables such as broccoli, cauliflower, lettuce and other greens, eggplant, avocados, olives, artichokes, and more, alongside nutrient dense animal foods."
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