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  #241   ^
Old Wed, Mar-02-22, 06:13
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
Posts: 13,370
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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Hi Key Tones, Marty posted a new update to my 18 months on #ThePEdiet and Data Driven Fasting. On Twitter, but this time, it was lost in the shuffle of anti-vax and Ukraine. I’m posting it here too…I still follow a PE diet, prioritizing protein in first meal, more high fiber veg, less fatty foods, love my low fat dairy, and eat two meals in 6-8 hours. I’m at my goal until this summer when I do a lot of cardio in a pool, I may shoot for Dr Naiman's "ideal" weight then, another 5 pounds. Crazy to think of it

https://optimisingnutrition.com/jul...driven-fasting/

Last edited by JEY100 : Wed, Mar-02-22 at 07:57.
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  #242   ^
Old Wed, Mar-02-22, 10:22
Key Tones's Avatar
Key Tones Key Tones is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 167
 
Plan: Dr Ted Naiman + IF
Stats: 320/158/140 Female 5'10" age 56
BF:
Progress: 90%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
Hi Key Tones, Marty posted a new update to my 18 months on #ThePEdiet and Data Driven Fasting. On Twitter, but this time, it was lost in the shuffle of anti-vax and Ukraine. I’m posting it here too…I still follow a PE diet, prioritizing protein in first meal, more high fiber veg, less fatty foods, love my low fat dairy, and eat two meals in 6-8 hours. I’m at my goal until this summer when I do a lot of cardio in a pool, I may shoot for Dr Naiman's "ideal" weight then, another 5 pounds. Crazy to think of it

https://optimisingnutrition.com/jul...driven-fasting/


Hey, that's great - you look fabulous!!
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  #243   ^
Old Sun, Mar-13-22, 10:29
JLx's Avatar
JLx JLx is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 3,199
 
Plan: High protein, lower fat
Stats: 000/000/145 Female 66
BF:276, 255 hi wts
Progress: 0%
Location: Michigan U.P., USA
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JEY: "Exactly my goal of 145 g for the day, under 1200 calories."

Total calories are part of your goal? That raises a question I've been wondering - if there is a "too low" calorie amount to Dr. Naiman's plan. And how much they count in total.

I just read through this whole thread and I have watched/listened to quite a few of his podcasts and videos, as well as any print interviews - concentrating on those from within the last year as I know he's made some revisions.

The only thing I've made note of regarding calories was this:

Quote:
Fat is essential, and Carbs are not. If you eat a zero-Fat diet you will literally die. And even a Low-Fat diet, with Fat less than around 30% of calories, will very likely lead to problems (low testosterone, gallstones, etc.).

The requirement for Carbs in the human diet, on the other hand, is exactly zero. So, I am sick and tired of Fat being punished by the entire calorie concept. Calories are broken anyway, because PROTEIN calories don’t seem to count, and we should only be worrying about NON-PROTEIN ENERGY calories in any case. So, using calories feels like a big step backwards. Another reason is that Carbs are massively overeaten in our modern society. Sure, Fat has twice as many calories per gram, but the average American is eating THREE times as many Carb grams as they are Fat grams.

https://www.ketogains.com/2020/01/thepedietbook/



That suggests to me that total calories don't count for much if you are prioritizing protein. (And yes, I understand that he often uses "energy density" instead of calories.)

But, I'm curious about this concept as I belong to a weight loss club (in the real world) and am in charge of informational "programs" as part of our meetings. We're all a bunch of old ladies and on different plans, but they are inveterate calorie counters no matter what their plan. (Including the Keto dieter.) I made a pitch to them about eating more protein but not sure how much of an impact it had.

In one of Dr. Naiman's podcasts, the interviewer asked him what he tells a partient when they first walk into his office if they're over fat. And he said, "Add a chicken breast to your daily diet". I explained who Dr. Naiman is and recited that bit of advice to my club. Nobody there said it, but I know they were thinking "Add more calories?"
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  #244   ^
Old Sun, Mar-13-22, 11:27
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
Posts: 13,370
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
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Sorry, I am merging three programs when I can, that calorie limit is based on both the macros I use for Marty Kendall's Data Driven Fasting and Nutrient Optimisation programs, and by the date I wrote that, I was finishing up the MacroNutrient Masterclass. There is a calorie guideline for that program based on your macros and goals, and progress as the days go by. At the end of the program, it was 1200 calories for me, and for my goal to try to lose more body fat.

Dr Naiman's program is at its most basic is the graphic in this post:

https://forum.lowcarber.org/showpos...20&postcount=12

Last edited by JEY100 : Sun, Mar-13-22 at 11:41.
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  #245   ^
Old Sun, Mar-13-22, 13:10
JLx's Avatar
JLx JLx is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 3,199
 
Plan: High protein, lower fat
Stats: 000/000/145 Female 66
BF:276, 255 hi wts
Progress: 0%
Location: Michigan U.P., USA
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Ok, gotcha on the calorie limit.

And yes, I'm familiar with Dr. Naiman's basic plan. My club would balk at any suggestion that they eat ony 50 gm carbs (they still all eat sugar!) and I believe he's backed off on that particular specific recommendation anyway.
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  #246   ^
Old Sun, Mar-13-22, 13:25
deirdra's Avatar
deirdra deirdra is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,324
 
Plan: vLC/GF,CF,SF
Stats: 197/136/150 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 130%
Location: Alberta
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JLx, as a senior, the most compelling reason for me to eat more protein is because we don't use it as effectively to build & repair muscle as we did when we were younger. That's why many seniors end up frail and prone to falls, which is not how I want to end up.
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  #247   ^
Old Sun, Mar-13-22, 13:51
JLx's Avatar
JLx JLx is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 3,199
 
Plan: High protein, lower fat
Stats: 000/000/145 Female 66
BF:276, 255 hi wts
Progress: 0%
Location: Michigan U.P., USA
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Yes, I understand that and am looking forward to that benefit.
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  #248   ^
Old Sun, Mar-13-22, 15:23
Key Tones's Avatar
Key Tones Key Tones is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 167
 
Plan: Dr Ted Naiman + IF
Stats: 320/158/140 Female 5'10" age 56
BF:
Progress: 90%
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Hi JLX,

What I have found is I eat only about half of the protein Dr. Naiman recommends for a woman of my height, if left to my own devices. The idea here is that eating protein basically shuts off your appetite. And it definitely does that.

It is important to add the protein without increasing fat, and that is tricky. What I have heard Dr. Naiman say to do is to replace carbs (processed carbs) with protein.

I hope that helps. I haven't counted calories at all. I have only tracked probably a handful of days (with Dr. Naiman's proteinpercent.com - new website name- to get an idea of a "template" for what I should be doing.

I am not a chicken breast fan (I likes skinless and trimmed chicken thighs), but I like that advice he provides. I don't like egg whites (although I might try it again with maybe chaffles I make with low fat or fat free mozzarella), and I have pitched at least three nearly full jugs of whey powder, I get sick of it quickly. What I love is basically low fat or fat free Greek yogurt (like 0% Fage) mixed with some cocoa powder or even some dry decaf coffee with sweetener. It is so good, and so easy! I eat a LOT of that with some berries.
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  #249   ^
Old Sun, Mar-13-22, 15:25
Key Tones's Avatar
Key Tones Key Tones is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 167
 
Plan: Dr Ted Naiman + IF
Stats: 320/158/140 Female 5'10" age 56
BF:
Progress: 90%
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Another great Dr. Ted Naiman interview - great for motivation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNGYo1C8eQk
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  #250   ^
Old Sun, Mar-13-22, 17:28
JLx's Avatar
JLx JLx is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 3,199
 
Plan: High protein, lower fat
Stats: 000/000/145 Female 66
BF:276, 255 hi wts
Progress: 0%
Location: Michigan U.P., USA
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Key Tones - thanks. I don't think I've listened to that one yet.

I'm intending to eat his higher range of protein because I am diabetic and therefore insulin resistant, as I understand it, and also have quite a lot of fat on my bod. I couldn't say where, but I believe he said something like that along the way such as "insulin resistant diabetics need 40% diet of protein because they use more". I think I actually have that in my notes, so I'm not relying on my memory. So that's what I'm shooting for.

I'm getting more used to it all the time and don't mind protein powders and Greek yogurt. I've tried most brands of sugar-free and didn't think much of them, so now I use plain and just put a squirt of Stur in it. Just enough to give it a little flavor but not as sweet as commercial brands.

I was asking about calories because I read on Diet Doctor https://www.dietdoctor.com/high-protein/faq

Quote:
At the same time, you don’t want your calorie intake to go too low for an extended period of time. Chronic caloric restriction can slow your metabolism. Getting sufficient calories is just as important as not overdoing calories, even during weight loss.


Could that be right if you are getting all that protein and are not too low fat?
As Dr. Naiman also said something about needing about 30% fat. (It's not likely I'll ever need to worry about not getting that.) The Diet Doctor reference is to the Biggest Loser study and how much those people lowered their metabolism. But can that be extrapolated to people who get plenty of protein and adequate fat? Or is it still/also about overall calories? That's my question.

The last thing I want to do losing weight is lower my metabolism.
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  #251   ^
Old Sun, Mar-13-22, 20:05
Key Tones's Avatar
Key Tones Key Tones is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 167
 
Plan: Dr Ted Naiman + IF
Stats: 320/158/140 Female 5'10" age 56
BF:
Progress: 90%
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I did a lot of fasting/IF before the pandemic, then I moved to just 16/8 until I got vaccinated. I heard Dr. Peter Attia say that it probably wasn't safe to fast during the pandemic beyond 16 hours because it drops your white blood cell count.

I lost most of my weight during the pandemic, between July 2019 and December2021. I don't think that was too fast. I haven't had any problems, but I also don't know what my calorie count was.

Some of my low carb/high fat friends were concerned about my not eating enough fat. I said I am on a high-fat diet. I'm "eating" from the fat stores on my body.

I never worried about going too low in calories. I lost weight in spurts, so I would have some stretches where I was able to tolerate eating less, then I would give it a rest. I just did it based on how I felt.

I know a scientist that looked at the biggest loser data - I'm not going to mention his name. He said basically that the participants knew they were going to to be examined, and what happened is that they were lax for some period of time, and then when they knew they would be examined, that they, like most people, cleaned it up and restricted their calories before being examined, and yes, you can slow down your metabolism if you restrict down hard.

I've never had a problem with IF and high protein. When I tried a low fat vegan diet years ago, that was HORRIFIC. I screwed up my metabolism so badly, it took over 9 months for me to feel human again. There was nothing wrong with any of my blood work, I was supplementing, but I was chronically undereating, trying to lose weight. I was cold, I wore a coat at my desk, I wore double sweats at home - I was only warm in the bathtub, it was terrible. Going back to eating normally did not suddenly reverse this. I couldn't even walk the small incline walk from Pike Place Market to the Convention Center (maybe 8 blocks up a very slight incline) - I was so fatigued I had to take the bus back on my walk during my lunch break.

Definitely don't drastically under-eat. I was eating only 600-800 calories a day on that low fat vegan diet (doing the potato hack m-f and eating a bit more on weekends, but not much). Sadly, I did not even get to a normal weight doing that!!
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  #252   ^
Old Mon, Mar-14-22, 06:21
JLx's Avatar
JLx JLx is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 3,199
 
Plan: High protein, lower fat
Stats: 000/000/145 Female 66
BF:276, 255 hi wts
Progress: 0%
Location: Michigan U.P., USA
Default

When I put in the macros from Dr. Naiman for my height, then Cronometer calculated 1600 calories a day. I'm a few hundred under that some days but never below 1200 so now I'm thinking I needn't worry.

I always lost weight on LC of about 100 gm carbs and 1500-1600 calories; the problem was sticking to it as I always wanted "more" of something. So far, so good in prioritizing protein as I don't have that feeling.
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  #253   ^
Old Mon, Mar-14-22, 07:15
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
Posts: 13,370
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
Default

JLx, Agree with KT on fasting. Both Dr Naiman and Marty Kendall are not fans of OMAD, but suggest more a 6-8 hour eating window mainly so you can eat enough protein. With DDF if you haven’t reached your BG trigger by when your usual first meal is, and you are hungry, you can prioritize protein and then often BG will drop 1-2 hours after a meal. It’s amazing, BG lower after a meal. Even using lean proteins, I was surprised how much fat was still in foods. In the Macro program I set fat to 30% but ended up closer to 40%. Coming from a very low carb background, adding vegetables and fruit, net carbs were mostly near 20%.

When I starting following Dr Fung, they recommended older women having a hard time losing weight fast 36 to 42 hours. I hated going to bed hungry and like KT would be freezing. Why fasting fails for so many: https://optimisingnutrition.com/dat...ils-for-so-many

That was another good interview with Dr Baker! His audio was pretty poor, but Dr Naiman's mic was fine and his answers helpful.
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  #254   ^
Old Mon, Mar-14-22, 14:12
JLx's Avatar
JLx JLx is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 3,199
 
Plan: High protein, lower fat
Stats: 000/000/145 Female 66
BF:276, 255 hi wts
Progress: 0%
Location: Michigan U.P., USA
Default

Well, I wasn't thinking of fasting, just wondering about the day-after-day calorie count being lower than my Cronometer macros.

I tried fasting back when Dr. Fung first made a splash and half my hair fell out (and I wasn't even doing more than OMAD and maybe a 24 hour fast once in a while) so it was obvious that I wasn't able to get enough protein on that regimen.

Interesting about blood glucose lowering after protein eating. Sometimes I have a Greek yogurt while I'm trying to decide what else to eat which may take up to an hour, especially if I decide to actually cook something, so I guess that would qualify.

I've read quite a bit of Marty Kendall's stuff but am not inclined to do the actual DDF. Maybe one day.
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  #255   ^
Old Tue, Mar-15-22, 09:07
Key Tones's Avatar
Key Tones Key Tones is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 167
 
Plan: Dr Ted Naiman + IF
Stats: 320/158/140 Female 5'10" age 56
BF:
Progress: 90%
Default

I agree! I tried the Fung program - I think it was around 2016. I did it with LCHF. I thought it was great, until it turned into a rollercoaster of weight loss/weight gain. It does not work for me, and I think it was because of the low protein nature of LCHF plus so many hours of not eating!

My daughter did it with me too, and it put her off completely of dieting and low carb both. She won't even try anything else, she says it is futile (just results in gaining it back) and ignores my high protein diet too now.

That did a lot of damage unfortunately, I wish I had never tried it because of the way my (adult) daughter reacted and her conclusions.
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