Active Low-Carber Forums
Atkins diet and low carb discussion provided free for information only, not as medical advice.
Home Plans Tips Recipes Tools Stories Studies Products
Active Low-Carber Forums
A sugar-free zone


Welcome to the Active Low-Carber Forums.
Support for Atkins diet, Protein Power, Neanderthin (Paleo Diet), CAD/CALP, Dr. Bernstein Diabetes Solution and any other healthy low-carb diet or plan, all are welcome in our lowcarb community. Forget starvation and fad diets -- join the healthy eating crowd! You may register by clicking here, it's free!

Go Back   Active Low-Carber Forums > Main Low-Carb Diets Forums & Support > Low Carb Health & Technical Forums > Cholesterol, Heart Disease
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members Calendar Mark Forums Read Search Gallery My P.L.A.N. Survey


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #166   ^
Old Tue, May-28-19, 17:38
thud123's Avatar
thud123 thud123 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 5,251
 
Plan: ~25NC/IF
Stats: 342.2/229/000 Male 182cm
BF:
Progress: 33%
Default

Quote:
My never-ending story continues. I'll keep you all posted on any new information.

>>>> <<<<
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #167   ^
Old Tue, May-28-19, 19:53
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 12,172
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 255/214/153 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 40%
Location: Massachusetts
Default

While Im tardy to the party, I'll throw in two components too rarely connected. Vit D3 and Vitamin K2. BOTH have direct impact on calcium deposition. Have either of these altered significantly?

In my experience, doctors know far too little about either of these. The focus is on calcium but not how it is directed by Vitamins D3 and K2.

Hope this helps in some small way.
Reply With Quote
  #168   ^
Old Wed, May-29-19, 11:26
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,204
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
Default

Ken, I added the Dr. Blanchet podcast to the Low Carb Support page and Diane came back with: "my CAC score reversed by 500 pts this past year. Amazing! I was not taking garlic but all the other things I had been. Fishoil, k2 etc. The big key, from what I understand is to get your hdl up. Yours is really good and mine is right behind ya"

A 500 point reduction!?! Yours isn't so dramatic anymore
Reply With Quote
  #169   ^
Old Wed, May-29-19, 11:35
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is offline
Posts: 11,271
 
Plan: Atkins DANDR
Stats: 210/188/160 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 44%
Location: Texas
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
Ken, I added the Dr. Blanchet podcast to the Low Carb Support page and Diane came back with: "my CAC score reversed by 500 pts this past year. Amazing! I was not taking garlic but all the other things I had been. Fishoil, k2 etc. The big key, from what I understand is to get your hdl up. Yours is really good and mine is right behind ya"

A 500 point reduction!?! Yours isn't so dramatic anymore


Oh, so there is another confirmation that this is really working like Ken found out! Good!!
Reply With Quote
  #170   ^
Old Wed, May-29-19, 12:12
khrussva's Avatar
khrussva khrussva is offline
Posts: 7,584
 
Plan: My own - < 30 net carbs
Stats: 440/213/210 Male 5' 11"
BF:Energy Unleashed
Progress: 99%
Location: Central Virginia - USA
Default

That is good news, Janet. I'm sitting in the waiting room for my cardiologist visit right now. I'm hoping for confirmation. A $50 copays worth of confirmation.
Reply With Quote
  #171   ^
Old Wed, May-29-19, 12:21
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is offline
Posts: 11,271
 
Plan: Atkins DANDR
Stats: 210/188/160 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 44%
Location: Texas
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
Ken, I added the Dr. Blanchet podcast to the Low Carb Support page and Diane came back with: "my CAC score reversed by 500 pts this past year. Amazing! I was not taking garlic but all the other things I had been. Fishoil, k2 etc. The big key, from what I understand is to get your hdl up. Yours is really good and mine is right behind ya"

A 500 point reduction!?! Yours isn't so dramatic anymore


Janet, Can you please pass along the link to this post?

Ken, best $50 investment ever, toward good health.
Reply With Quote
  #172   ^
Old Wed, May-29-19, 14:33
khrussva's Avatar
khrussva khrussva is offline
Posts: 7,584
 
Plan: My own - < 30 net carbs
Stats: 440/213/210 Male 5' 11"
BF:Energy Unleashed
Progress: 99%
Location: Central Virginia - USA
Default

Well that turned out to be in infuriating exercise in futility and a waste of $49.95. I'll give him a nickel for the comment that he has "no reason to doubt my new score." He said that they did upgrade to a whole new machine and that might explain the differences in the score; though he admitted that this was only a guess. He really had no idea. What my new CAC score means to him is that I still have significant CAD and his recommendation is that I should be on a statin and daily aspirin. As far as the significant downward trend in my scores? "I don't know. I couldn't tell you." He has no explanation, nor did he care one iota. Again, he only looks at the one number -- the Total Agatsten score -- and makes his recommendations accordingly. I explained that my point with the followup exam was to see if my lifestyle changes are having a positive effect and halting or possibly reversing CVD. "Sorry I can't be of more help" is all I got. Blinking robots is what they are, just like my doctor's fixation on LDL-C. There is no interest in diving deeper. Standards of care robots.

I was misled when I made this appointment. I was told that he would be able to review the image data with me. The stated purpose of my appointment with him was explicitly to review and compare my 2017 results to my latest scan. The reality was that he had no idea why I was there. He told me that he never sees the image data -- he only gets the same report that I do. I let him know that I was quite upset about how this appointment was turning out. He was nice enough to offer to give the retiring Dr. Phillips a call to see if he could check into it. Dr. Phillips was the authority who reviewed and signed off on my latest scan. He is the one that I wanted to talk to in the first place. So hopefully there will be more information to come.

I guess that the only good news in this is that the cardiologist said that the new machine had been in use for about a year and is supposed to be more accurate. If the machine is producing bogus results, then you'd think that the issue might have come up by now. But then again, they don't seem to care about the actual score or tends from the previous - other than the fact that there is a score and calcium is present.

Last edited by khrussva : Wed, May-29-19 at 15:20.
Reply With Quote
  #173   ^
Old Wed, May-29-19, 15:51
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,204
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meme#1
Janet, Can you please pass along the link to this post?

Ken, best $50 investment ever, toward good health.


It is from a closed Facebook group, originally created as the on-line presence for the Durham LC support group by Dr. Eric Westman. We take anyone but many are new patients with basic questions. But I can add to that comment from a member "My score last year was 2630 so its gonna take a while but I am pleased it didn't progress!" Yikes! and Dr. Blanchet mentioned a patient with a 4000 score, and David Bobbitt was 900, so Ken is definitely in good health when these CAC scores are placed on the range like that!
Reply With Quote
  #174   ^
Old Wed, May-29-19, 16:31
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,204
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
Default

Ken, I looked at the VCS website yesterday and noticed the doctor names you mentioned were all cardiologists. My scans are done by Radiologists, but I had no idea the advantages or disadvantages of the two different set-ups and decided to not muddy the waters. It is possible VCS has on-site radiology technicians and the Board certified Radiologist who creates the report is with an outside group on contract. Or possible in that long list of VCS doctors as an employee, but you need the radiologist name, to get beyond the LDL focus of latest visit.

For my annual mammogram and one time CAC, I use Radiology Centers. The final reports are signed by MDs who have advanced training in radiology and are certified by the American Board of Radiology. They sit in darkened offices, as they spend much of their day reviewing and signing off the techs work, looking at digital scans on large monitors, rarely seeing the patient. Diagnostic patients, cancer survivors like me, have more scans done, and we do sit get to be that darkened office going over the specks on the monitor.
Would there be an advantage of speaking with a Radiologist who has a speciality in Cardiology or a Cardiologist who sees more actual patients? No idea...but doing both seems to yield more information...something that is a "a good thing"
Reply With Quote
  #175   ^
Old Wed, May-29-19, 17:24
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 3,108
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
Default

I know that response is frustrating, and I've been there several times. To prevent becoming exasperated, I no longer venture there, as I've learned the limits of knowledge and the extent of interest of certain physicians. We seem to be left to our own experiences, and I must say, we learn, make course corrections, and listen to those who have experience and knowledge in the CAC area.

The video with Ivor Cummins and Patrick Theut was excellent as was the one with Dr. Blanchet, and I purchased Patrick's Vitamin K formula and am now on Day 2. I've been taking K2 for a few years, but his formula is at a much greater dose and includes K, K2 (MK4 and MK7) along with Astaxanthin, an antioxidant. I'll try this for the remainder of this year, and then consider doing a second CAC. There's no way I'll be able to directly attribute this supplement change to any change in my CAC score, but I have faith that what I'm doing is right for good health.
Reply With Quote
  #176   ^
Old Thu, May-30-19, 06:01
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,204
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
Default

I was skimming the new Costco magazine and saw an Artery Health K2 mixed with other things, but not the ones Rob has. I haven't paid much attention to K2 up until now...but that is going to change. https://www.costco.com/Weider-Arter....100462632.html
Reply With Quote
  #177   ^
Old Thu, May-30-19, 06:13
cotonpal's Avatar
cotonpal cotonpal is offline
Posts: 4,569
 
Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/128/135 Female 62
BF:
Progress: 106%
Location: Vermont
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
I was skimming the new Costco magazine and saw an Artery Health K2 mixed with other things, but not the ones Rob has. I haven't paid much attention to K2 up until now...but that is going to change. https://www.costco.com/Weider-Arter....100462632.html


Because I can't eat soy and most forms of K2 are derived from soy I am trying Mercola's vegetable ferment cultures which are supposed to be formulated to maximize k2. I have my first batch of sauerkraut using this culture fermenting now. Of course there is no way to know how much k2 I will get from the sauerkraut but I'm thinking it can't hurt. Before this I just used salt to ferment vegetables.
Reply With Quote
  #178   ^
Old Thu, May-30-19, 08:54
khrussva's Avatar
khrussva khrussva is offline
Posts: 7,584
 
Plan: My own - < 30 net carbs
Stats: 440/213/210 Male 5' 11"
BF:Energy Unleashed
Progress: 99%
Location: Central Virginia - USA
Default

I'd never been one to take supplements, other than popping down a multivitamin here and there. Not until that CAC scan 2 years ago, anyway. After that bad news I've made "heart healthy" nutrition a priority. Figuring out what is "heart healthy" is the trick. What I landed on appears to be working for me.

Since 2017 I have been religious about getting my daily D3, magnesium, and K2 (which I first heard about in this very thread). I also get some sun for natural vitamin D. I've added Gouda & Brie, free range eggs, and more fermented foods to my regular food rotation to get more K2 from food. I eat more sardines, mackerel, and wild salmon for the Omega 3 fish oil. I'm religious about moving every day (15,500 steps on average). In the past year regular cardio has worked its into my lifestyle a few times a week. I eat more fiber than most other low carbers - including plenty of soluble fiber. And of course, I am rock solid in my LCHF and sometimes VLC/Keto WOE.

Somewhere in there is the key - as it applies to me, anyway. YMMV. Maybe its a combination of things. I'm sure that there are other things that I could be doing that would make me better still. It's hard to know for sure. I don't plan on changing much of anything. I'm sticking with this regimen for the foreseeable future.
Reply With Quote
  #179   ^
Old Thu, May-30-19, 09:51
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 3,108
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
Default

Very similar story here regarding supplements. I've been taking K2 (MK7) for several years, but the interview with Theut convinced me to try a higher dose and broader range of K. The idea of moving calcium to where it belongs was what intrigued me initially, and a broader K spectrum makes sense. Along with magnesium, fish oil, and D3, those are my core supplements. I never wanted to take a boatload of stuff, as I'm not on any prescription medications, and it's far simpler that way. However, learning how to fine tune my health from this forum and many other good sources caused me to realize that supplements can be useful to target and fix those nutritional gaps that we all have.
Reply With Quote
  #180   ^
Old Thu, May-30-19, 12:52
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 12,172
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 255/214/153 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 40%
Location: Massachusetts
Default

K2-- I did some digging on that vitamin last summer which led to buying and reading THE DENTAL DIET by Dr Steven Lin, a dentist.

Bottle of vitamin K2 pills from Walmart
Eating quality Gouda cheese and brie cheese

Natto. Buy or make natto at home using dried beans rather than soy beans. Though a few commercial sources offer both options. have NOT found in any store, even the Asian store. Shipping is limited during the summer months.

Certain fermented, not pasturized foods are other options. like sauerkraut. Though much of K2 survives pasturization.

When we changed our food stream in the last century, we also lost much of the vitamin K2 sources. Vit K2 is not recognized by RDA so no information is available form that source.

Dr Lin says supplementing with vitamin K2 is a must, not an option for bone and teeth health. It is the controller that puts calcium where it belongs.

Quote:
We now know that vitamin K2 plays a role in forming and strengthening bones by activating osteocalcin, which helps carry calcium into bones. 38 We also know the K2 activates Matrix GLA Protein, which helps remove calcium from arteries to prevent artery hardening.39 .......

K2 also prevents the calcium deposition responsible for kidney stones 41 and is considered a crucial marker in the progression of kidney disease. 42 Studies are showing its role in preventing the formation of gallstones 43 and in protecting men from prostate cancer.44.......

So the next time you see calculus build up on your teeth, you might consider how this may be happening in the vessels throughout your body.


Quote:
When animals consume K1, which is found not only in grass but in green leafy vegetables, their digestive system converts it to K2. There are two types of vitamin K2, the animal- derived MK-4 and the bacteria -derived MK-7. Good sources of K2 ( MK-4 form) include organ meats, eggs from pastured-raised chickens, butter from pasture-fed cows, shell fish and emu oil.

K2 ( MK-7 form) can also be created by the fermentation of bacteria, so foods like Japanese natto ( a fermented soybean) , sauerkraut and cheeses like Gouda and brie are also good sources.


He also goes into great detail on how all the components work together:
Quote:
Vitamin D is the cement ( calcium) delivery truck.
Vitamin A is the scaffolding and the workers.
Oseocalcin and MGP protein are like quality controls . They make sure the cement gets to the right building project and doesn't clog up the water, electrical, and other moving systems.
Vitamin K2, turns the cement mixer on and activates the concrete.
Without K2, the workers just drop wet, unset concrete on to the building walls ( bone). It falls off and clumps where it shouldn't.
If this goes on, there's eventually unset concrete everywhere on the building site and in the plumbing and the generator ( or in our case, our arteries and organs), where it clogs up and shuts the system down.


I changed TWO major things: use baking soda to brush my teeth and take 2 capsules of K2 daily.

( And, I pay more attention to supporting my body's pH. Foods like cereal grains and sodas rob the bones of calcium to make buffers that stabilize the pH of the fluids like blood; and baking soda helps with that buffering. ALSO, The baking soda changes the pH of the mouth so that a better microflora is prevalent, and prevents tooth decay; I don't worry so much about getting enough calcium as getting the other building blocks like potassium, magnesium and phosphorus to balance the ( usually) excessive intake of calcium.)

In my experience doctors are very poorly educated about nutrition. I am fortunate that that has been my main area of study. In cattle and horses, we worry about the Ca:P ratios in the total diet. A 2:1 ratio is ideal. NEVER heard a pediatrician or any specialist EVER mention this. THey always ask about calcium intake. ALWAYS.

Sorry for the long post-- hope it helps clarify why K2 is vital. And worth taking a pill.

Last edited by Ms Arielle : Thu, May-30-19 at 13:13.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:53.


Copyright © 2000-2019 Active Low-Carber Forums @ forum.lowcarber.org
Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.