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  #31   ^
Old Tue, Jul-23-19, 04:31
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
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Progress: 136%
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Since healing from gluten sensitivity, i have a very low fiber tolerance. I AM listening to my gut.
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  #32   ^
Old Tue, Jul-23-19, 09:07
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GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
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Plan: Very LC, Higher Protein
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
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I've been eating mostly red meat as my primary protein source over the past 7 years. Certainly, I'll eat fowl, chicken, fish, shellfish, at times. In that time I've eliminated the following:
- Prescriptions
- Sleep apnea
- Stiffness in my hands upon waking up
- GERD
- HBP
- Skin tags (shriveled up and are completely gone)
- 40+ pounds
- Bouts of hypoglycemia & fatigue when not eating
- Breakfast (morning meal)
- Gout

The negative articles and reports we're seeing lately are more of the same mistaken understanding of what constitutes a healthy diet for individuals. The assumption that if a WOE is healthy for some, it must be healthy for everyone, or the inverse, if a WOE is unhealthy for some, it must be unhealthy for everyone is the first myth that needs correcting.
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  #33   ^
Old Tue, Jul-23-19, 09:17
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Posts: 14,606
 
Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/125/150 Female 67
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Progress: 136%
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GRB5111
Skin tags (shriveled up and are completely gone)


THIS is also the experience of DH. While not gone yet, he’s only six months in. Encouraging news.
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  #34   ^
Old Tue, Jul-23-19, 09:20
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cotonpal cotonpal is online now
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Plan: very low carb real food
Stats: 245/125/135 Female 62
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Location: Vermont
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A few years ago I was happy and surprised to learn that my neighbor who lives across the street from me ate a low carb diet which included plenty of red meat. I was talking with her just the other day and discovered that she is not eating nearly as low carb a diet as before although certainly many fewer carbs than an SAD but what surprised me is that she said, as if this is the wise things to do, that she only now ate red meat a few times a month and restricts her protein to white fish and chicken (maybe some others can't remember). This notion that red meat is bad for you has so permeated our society that people seem not to question it and announce their minimal ingestion of red meat as if it is an unquestioned sign of the healthy diet.
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  #35   ^
Old Tue, Jul-23-19, 09:29
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cotonpal
This notion that red meat is bad for you has so permeated our society that people seem not to question it and announce their minimal ingestion of red meat as if it is an unquestioned sign of the healthy diet.


Talk about being DEMONIZED. When I was a child, it was the Peak of Meat: we children were lucky to have any form of actual beef, as it was expensive. Hamburger, of course, was a staple.

No wonder, doing keto, I spent months stuffing myself with brisket

Equally bizarre to me is the obsession with fruit and veg. You know the Five a Day campaign was marketing? And now it’s health law.
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  #36   ^
Old Tue, Jul-23-19, 10:03
CityGirl8 CityGirl8 is offline
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Plan: Protein Power, IF
Stats: 238/204/145 Female 5'8"
BF:53.75%/46.6%/25%
Progress: 37%
Location: PNW
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Quote:
For inclusion in the control group, participants needed to have made no changes to their diet in the previous year, and follow a relatively healthy diet which included grains, legumes and dairy or alternatives.
Biased much? One group had to be following a Paleo diet and the other a "healthy" diet. Oy.

I'm tired of the vilification of red meat, too. As soon as I seem to convince someone that saturated fat isn't bad for you, I start hearing BS about how it's bad for your gut, "it doesn't agree with me," etc.
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  #37   ^
Old Tue, Jul-23-19, 10:24
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teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
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Yes, that inclusion criteria. They also biased towards various health markers. They knew going in that, in people eating a more standard diet, TMAO associated with poor health outcomes/markers. So, weed out people who have various markers that associated with high TMAO on a standard diet. Then compare those people's TMAO to a group likely, going in, to have higher levels of TMAO--but who also don't have those various markers/outcomes. You've designed a study to disassociate the marker from the poor outcomes... at least, potentially. Let's see what happens to these people going forward.
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  #38   ^
Old Sat, Sep-28-19, 07:41
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teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
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Another study throwing into question the idea of avoiding choline-rich foods to avoid health risks of TMAO that aren't even established...

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releas...90927122526.htm

Quote:
In a new study, Biodesign researchers reveal that a lifelong dietary regimen of choline holds the potential to prevent Alzheimer's disease (AD).

Choline is a safe and easy-to-administer nutrient that is naturally present in some foods and can be used as a dietary supplement. Lead author Ramon Velazquez and his colleagues at the ASU-Banner Neurodegenerative Disease Research Center (NDRC) looked into whether this nutrient could alleviate the effects of Alzheimer's.

Earlier this year, Velazquez and colleagues found transgenerational benefits of AD-like symptoms in mice whose mothers were supplemented with choline. The latest work expands this line of research by exploring the effects of choline administered in adulthood rather than in fetal mice.

The study focuses on female mice bred to develop AD-like symptoms. Given the higher prevalence of AD in human females, the study sought to establish the findings in female mice. Results showed that when these mice are given high choline in their diet throughout life, they exhibit improvements in spatial memory, compared with those receiving a normal choline regimen.

Notably, findings published in July 2019 from a group in China found benefits of lifelong choline supplementation in male mice with AD-like symptoms. "Our results nicely replicate findings by this group in females," Velazquez says.

Intriguingly, the beneficial effects of lifelong choline supplementation reduce the activation of microglia. Microglia are specialized cells that rid the brain of deleterious debris. Although they naturally occur to keep the brain healthy, if they are overactivated, brain inflammation and neuronal death, common symptoms of AD, will occur.

The observed reductions in disease-associated microglia, which are present in various neurodegenerative diseases, offer exciting new avenues of research and suggest ways of treating a broad range of disorders, including traumatic brain injuries, multiple sclerosis and Parkinson's disease.

The findings appear in the current issue of the journal Aging Cell.

Supplementing the brain with additional choline

Choline acts to protect the brain from Alzheimer's disease in at least two ways, both of which are explored in the new study. First, choline blocks the production of amyloid-beta plaques. Amyloid-beta plaques are the hallmark pathology observed in Alzheimer's disease.

Secondly, choline supplementation reduces the activation of microglia. Over-activation of microglia causes brain inflammation and can eventually lead to neuronal death, thereby compromising cognitive function. Choline supplementation reduces the activation of microglia, offering further protection from the ravages of AD.

Mechanistically, the reductions in microglia activation are driven by alteration of two key receptors, the alpha7 nicotinic acetylcholine and Sigma-1 receptor. A new report this year found that choline can act as an agonist for Sigma-1 receptors. These results confirm that lifelong choline supplementation can alter the expression of the Sigma-1 receptor, which thereby attenuates microglia activation. (An agonist is a substance that activates a given receptor.)

The devastating decline

In the scientific community, it is well understood that Alzheimer's disease causes harm to the brain long before clinical symptoms are made evident. And once these symptoms are identified, it is too late -- the disease has become irreversible. In addition to causing disorientation and memory loss, the disease causes loss of motor control in those who are afflicted.

Approximately 6 million individuals are living with AD in the U.S. currently, and the disease is projected to afflict 14 million Americans in the next four decades. Economically, the costs associated with managing Alzheimer's are expected to exceed $20 trillion in the same time span.

To develop more effective treatments, we first need to understand the disease itself, which is one of the tallest orders facing modern medicine today.

Women are at a particular increased risk of developing Alzheimer's disease. This study shows that the simple addition of choline in the diet throughout life may reduce AD pathology in those most affected by the disease. Additionally, these results have implications for other neurodegenerative afflictions where activated microglia are rampant says Velazquez.

Guidelines for dietary choline

Prior research concerning Alzheimer's has indicated that there is no one factor at play. Rather, a multitude of factors that are believed to contribute to the development of the disease, including genetics, age and lifestyle. Additionally, studies suggest that diet can have a significant effect in increasing or lowering the risk of cognitive decline.

A recent report suggested that plant-based diets may be determinantal due to the lack of important nutrients, including choline. Another recent report found that the increase in cases of dementia in the United Kingdom may be associated with a lack of recommendations for choline in the diet throughout life. In fact, as of August 2019, AD and other forms of dementia are now the leading cause of death in England and Wales.

The current established adequate intake level of choline for adult women (>19yrs of age) is 425mg/day, and 550mg/day for adult men. A converging line of evidence indicates that even the current recommended daily intake (RDI) may not be optimal for a proper aging process, especially in women. This is relevant, given the higher incidence of AD seen in women. This suggests that additional choline in diet may be beneficial in preventing neuropathological changes associated with the aging brain.

The tolerable upper limit (TUL) of choline unlikely to cause side effects for adult females and males (>19yrs of age) is 3500mg/day, which is 8.24 times higher than the 425mg/day recommendation for females and 6.36 times higher than the 550mg/day recommendation for males. "Our choline supplemented diet regimen was only 4.5 times the RDI, which is well below the TUL and makes this a safe strategy," Velazquez says.

Choline can be found in various foods. According to the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA), high levels of choline are found in chicken liver (3oz; 247mg), eggs (1 large egg with yolk;147mg), beef grass-fed steak (3oz; 55mg), wheat germ (1oz toast; 51mg), milk (8oz; 38mg), and Brussel sprouts (1/2 cup; 32mg). Additionally, vitamin supplements containing choline, for example choline bitartrate and choline chloride, are widely available at affordable costs. The vitamin supplements containing choline are particularly relevant for those who are on plant-based diets.

Effects of choline

All plant and animal cells require choline to maintain their structural integrity. It has long been recognized that choline is particularly important for brain function.

The human body uses choline to produce acetylcholine, a neurotransmitter responsible for functioning memory, muscle control and mood. Choline also is used to build cell membranes and plays a vital role in regulating gene expression. Additionally, a new report in Jan 2019 found that choline acts as an agonist for Sigma-1 receptors, which are implicated in AD pathogenesis.

In this study, researchers used a water maze to determine whether the mice with AD-like symptoms that received lifelong supplemental choline exhibited improvements in spatial memory. It was found that this was indeed the case, and subsequent examination of mouse tissue extracted from the hippocampus, a brain region known to play a central role in memory formation, confirmed changes in toxic amyloid-beta and reductions in microglia activation, which reduces brain inflammation.

Due to alterations of key microglia receptors induced by choline, the improvements in behavior may be attributed to reduced microglia activation. "We found that lifelong choline supplementation altered the alpha7 nicotinic acetylcholine and Sigma-1 receptor, which may have resulted in the reduction of diseased associated activated microglia," Velazquez said. These receptors regulate CNS immune response and their dysregulation contributes to AD pathogenesis.

The study's significance establishes beneficial effects of nutrient supplementation in females throughout life. "Our work nicely complements recent work showing benefits in male AD-mice on a lifelong choline supplementation regimen." "No one has shown lifelong benefits of choline supplementation in female AD-mice." "That's what is novel about our work."

Choline is an attractive candidate for prevention of AD as it is considered a very safe alternative, compared with many pharmaceuticals. "At 4.5 times the RDI (recommended daily intake), we are well under the tolerable upper limit, making this a safe preventive therapeutic strategy."

Although the results improve the understanding of the disease, the authors suggest that clinical trials will be necessary to confirm whether choline can be used as a viable treatment in the future.


These things are hard to establish in humans. There's a researcher who pins development of schizophrenia as possibly being due to faulty nicotinic receptor signalling...also inflammation is posited as a possible factor there and in bipolar, which brings those microglia into the mix. Although misfolded proteins--> increased microglial activation seems like a pretty obvious causual link (but obvious gets us in trouble sometimes). Evidence there in mice as well, humans are harder, this develops at an earlier age than Alzheimer's but by this theory at least still takes decades in its conception.

Vegans being told not only to avoid animal products, but given avoidance of possibly essential nutrients like choline as evidence of the craptitude of animal foods are being done no favours.
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  #39   ^
Old Sun, Sep-29-19, 10:55
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WereBear WereBear is offline
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From Know Your Neurotransmitters: Acetylcholine

Quote:
Choline & Acetylcholine

Choline is a precursor to the neurotransmitter acetylcholine. Nerves use choline to make acetylcholine, which acts as a messenger between nerves — a huge variety of nerves.

Acetylcholine tells muscles to twitch and more, but it also tells your hippocampus to store a memory. It plays an essential role in alertness, attention, learning, and memory. It’s so essential to memory, in fact, that acetylcholine deficits are associated with Alzheimer’s disease.
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  #40   ^
Old Sun, Sep-29-19, 12:01
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Meme#1 Meme#1 is offline
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Plan: Atkins DANDR
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Why?........good from fish and not beef?

Sorry I was on page one and two, there is a lot more written since then....
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  #41   ^
Old Sun, Sep-29-19, 12:27
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
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Progress: 104%
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The people saying that it's good from fish aren't saying that choline etc. from beef is bad--they're saying poor outcomes from epidemiology might be explained by beef having a little bit less than there is in fish. People saying TMAO kills are ignoring the fact that it's high in fish, but are still using it to explain poor outcomes when people eat it in beef. If this still doesn't seem to make sense, it's because it actually doesn't make sense. One series of studies shows apparent advantages with TMAO, so people looked at what they consider healthful foods, found the ones high in it, and pushed that narrative. Another series showed apparent risk, so they looked at the usual suspects and used it to make them look bad. Some of this may be the scientists themselves showing their bias, but a lot of it might just come down to crummy journalism.

Quote:
L-Carnitine intake and high trimethylamine N-oxide plasma levels correlate with low aortic lesions in ApoE−/− transgenic mice expressing CETP

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scien...021915015301921

Not sure if this one's been posted yet. Here's one where mice are protected from atherosclerosis by TMAO. So, suck down the TMAO?

Mice are not particularly prone to heart disease, unlike humans. If you buy that the only difference between humans and mice is knocking out APOE, then most of the mouse studies of heart disease are relevant to your health--or at least you believe they are. Knocking out APOE makes saturated fat, cholesterol, all sorts of things (but apparently not TMAO, at least not in this study) dangerous to these mice, accelerating atherosclerosis. I believe even fasting does this--given it's effects on plasma lipids, maybe that's not surprising.

APOE is a lipoprotein involved in fat trafficking and also has a role in delivery of fat soluble vitamins. The tmao producing nutrients, carnitine and choline are both heavily involved in fat and lipid metabolism as well.
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