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  #181   ^
Old Sat, Sep-07-19, 08:22
rightnow's Avatar
rightnow rightnow is offline
Every moment is NOW.
Posts: 20,920
 
Plan: LC (ketogenic)
Stats: 520/350/280 Female 66 inches
BF: Why yes it is.
Progress: 71%
Location: Ozarks USA
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I reread this whole thread.

Things still wandering around the back of my head:

WHY does Niacin... do... something... with fat?

WHAT specifically is it doing?

To what end?

Does the AMOUNT of fat in the body* before/during/after the ingestion of niacin, affect anything?

Like flush? I mean 'degree' of it?


* I mean like:

a/ Fat in the bloodstream at the time
b/ Fat stored in the body



How does the flush (I watched the video linked above) relate to the fat thing??

Is there anything non-harmful one can take that would reduce the quantity of... progesteglandinish things?

Tek (my body-archetype), in a dream -- TWICE (two dreams separated by months) no less! -- referred to my homemade "micro-emulsified/liposomal vitamin C" (sunflower lecithin + ascorbic) as "The liver food and repair juice." This leads me to wonder if the lecithin part of this supp would be perfect for taking with niacin. Well, and of course the ascorbic which is already a recommendation.

If niacin is an amino acid... which one? One that we don't have on our normal list?

PJ
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  #182   ^
Old Sat, Sep-07-19, 09:53
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Posts: 11,822
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/136/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 120%
Location: USA
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Niacin is B3. And it's not a vitamin. It's an amino acid. A neurotransmitter supply.

That changes everything.
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  #183   ^
Old Sat, Sep-07-19, 10:17
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 13,671
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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I don't think it's technically an amino acid, at least I can't find anything on that. It's synthesized from tryptophan. One neurotransmitter connection is through tryptophan, both niacin and some neurotransmitters, serotonin's the one that comes to mind, are made from tryptophan, so a lack of niacin might increase the requirement for tryptophan, that might explain some of the neurological symptoms of pellegra.
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  #184   ^
Old Sat, Sep-07-19, 10:47
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 13,671
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rightnow
I reread this whole thread.

Things still wandering around the back of my head:

WHY does Niacin... do... something... with fat?

WHAT specifically is it doing?

To what end?

Does the AMOUNT of fat in the body* before/during/after the ingestion of niacin, affect anything?

Like flush? I mean 'degree' of it?


* I mean like:

a/ Fat in the bloodstream at the time
b/ Fat stored in the body



How does the flush (I watched the video linked above) relate to the fat thing??

Is there anything non-harmful one can take that would reduce the quantity of... progesteglandinish things?

Tek (my body-archetype), in a dream -- TWICE (two dreams separated by months) no less! -- referred to my homemade "micro-emulsified/liposomal vitamin C" (sunflower lecithin + ascorbic) as "The liver food and repair juice." This leads me to wonder if the lecithin part of this supp would be perfect for taking with niacin. Well, and of course the ascorbic which is already a recommendation.

If niacin is an amino acid... which one? One that we don't have on our normal list?

PJ


The most direct effect on lipids seems to be related to the maybe misnamed nicotinic acid receptor. This receptor decreases lipolysis in fat cells, and the ketone beta hydroxybutyrate is also a ligand. So--a feedback when ketones hit a certain level that decreases break down of fat sort of makes sense when during fasting, a ketogenic diet etc. part of the "purpose" of lipolysis is to supply fatty acids for the production of ketones. So you get a temporary decrease in free fatty acids, but then a little while later a rebound to higher than you started--while free fatty acids were low, growth hormone increases, a lack of available free fatty acids/glucose in the blood tends to drive growth hormone up.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2779993/

This goes into detail, the same receptors that affect lipolysis also affect production of eicosanoids--those little pixies produced from essential fatty acids that Barry Sears was always going on about--that trigger the flushing response. I think some of the anti-inflammatory effect I used to get when my shoulder was more of a problem might have just been similar to what you get from applying heat or cold. That might explain why I kept having to cycle off of it, as I got more and more resistant to the flushing effect.

Also makes me wonder about keto rash, since beta hydroxybutyrate is also a ligand for that same receptor.
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  #185   ^
Old Sat, Sep-07-19, 23:30
rightnow's Avatar
rightnow rightnow is offline
Every moment is NOW.
Posts: 20,920
 
Plan: LC (ketogenic)
Stats: 520/350/280 Female 66 inches
BF: Why yes it is.
Progress: 71%
Location: Ozarks USA
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If we know what is generated that causes the flush do we not know or suspect what might reduce it?

I ask in part because I've had plenty of flushes that were not merely very uncomfortable, they were like the skin version of bad dentistry. For hours. It is tough to make myself want to do that to myself again.

PJ
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  #186   ^
Old Sun, Sep-08-19, 07:41
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 13,671
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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Other than lower doses, there is aspirin, that reduces prostaglandin/eicosanoid production.

Other than that, extended release versions, or other forms of the vitamin either cause less flushing or none.

There are claims that schizophrenics are more tolerant of niacin, get less of a flush at a given dose. I have a high tolerance compared to other people I know who've tried it and don't have a history of schizophrenic-type psychosis symptoms.

Not sure we've had this bipolar case study posted in this thread yet;

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5852710/

Quote:
Abstract
Nicotinic acid (NA), often called niacin, a form of vitamin B3, is a water-soluble nutrient found in animal and vegetarian foods. Vitamin B3 for healthy people is considered to be needed in doses of less than 20 mg daily. In higher doses, NA has been described to be beneficial in some patients with psychiatric disorders. This report describes a male patient with bipolar type II disorder who for many years had been treated with lithium and other medications applied in affective disorders. These pharmacological drugs had beneficial effects but were at times insufficient. When the patient was prescribed NA, he experienced a comparatively strong effect. Slowly it was discovered that the patient could lower and cease all medications except NA. For over 11 years he has been stable and calm with NA and currently takes 1 g three times daily. When not taking NA, he consistently became anxious and depressed within 23 days. The resumption of NA resulted in a normal state usually within 1 day. This finding has been described as a vitamin dependency. The paper discusses possible mechanisms for the effect of NA in this patient. Further studies are needed to investigate the prevalence of vitamin B3 dependency and the biochemical explanations for this phenomenon.


Because I was chasing the anti-inflammatory effects at the time--and cycling up and down to maintain sensitivity to the flushing effect--I don't think I ever spent much time up at the two to three gram level, where this fellow found lower anxiety levels. Given the shared receptor with beta hydroxybutyrate, plus other anecdotes including mine, I wonder if he's a prime candidate for a ketogenic diet?
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  #187   ^
Old Sun, Sep-08-19, 11:12
dan_rose dan_rose is offline
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Posts: 147
 
Plan: None
Stats: 161/140/140 Male 5'10"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Loughborough, UK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
Also makes me wonder about keto rash, since beta hydroxybutyrate is also a ligand for that same receptor.

Not sure if it's related but I get more spots on my face when I fast.
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  #188   ^
Old Sun, Sep-08-19, 15:34
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Posts: 11,822
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/136/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 120%
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan_rose
Not sure if it's related but I get more spots on my face when I fast.


Now what could it be that my skin gets much less troubled on keto and fasting?
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  #189   ^
Old Sun, Sep-08-19, 17:47
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
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Posts: 11,889
 
Plan: atkins
Stats: 255/214/153 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 40%
Location: Massachusetts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
I don't think it's technically an amino acid, at least I can't find anything on that. It's synthesized from tryptophan. One neurotransmitter connection is through tryptophan, both niacin and some neurotransmitters, serotonin's the one that comes to mind, are made from tryptophan, so a lack of niacin might increase the requirement for tryptophan, that might explain some of the neurological symptoms of pellegra.


Now you have me thinking....

My son hass been rather happy these last couple months. Unusual for him. Oddly, he stopped 5HTP 5-6months ago.

Apparently liver is a good source. And though he recently added this to his diet and eats about a pounds worth at a go..... but since consumption is not every day......cant account for the new found happiness.

Last edited by Ms Arielle : Sun, Sep-08-19 at 18:57.
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