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  #1   ^
Old Mon, Oct-11-04, 19:03
stayfit's Avatar
stayfit stayfit is offline
New Member
Posts: 13
 
Plan: tkd
Stats: 150/146.5/120
BF:
Progress: 12%
Location: Nashville
Default veggies count?

In NHE do veggies count against your total carbs in the day? I am doing cutting phase. I ususally eat brocoli, cauliflower and tomatoes. Do I count these?
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  #2   ^
Old Mon, Oct-11-04, 20:05
Built's Avatar
Built Built is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 3,661
 
Plan: Metabolic Surge
Stats: 170/139/? Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: 100%
Location: Canada's Wet Coast
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Tomatoes are a little high, so you may need to watch these a bit, and yes, count 'em all, but broccoli and cauliflower are pretty low.
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  #3   ^
Old Tue, Oct-12-04, 07:02
jagbender's Avatar
jagbender jagbender is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,829
 
Plan: Atkins /NHE/CKD
Stats: 289/219/200 Male 5' 8"
BF:41%/20%/18%
Progress: 79%
Location: West Michigan
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These veggies are so thermogenic that they do not need to be counted toward your carb count on NHE after you have made the transition.
Asparagus, Brocolli, Cabbage, Cauliflower, Celery, Lettuce, Mushrooms, Radicchio, Radish, and Spinach.
Pg 153 NHE
Jag
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  #4   ^
Old Tue, Oct-12-04, 16:50
stayfit's Avatar
stayfit stayfit is offline
New Member
Posts: 13
 
Plan: tkd
Stats: 150/146.5/120
BF:
Progress: 12%
Location: Nashville
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Thanks for the clarification.

I thought I came across a post in here saying that insulin resistance is icreased after a period of ketosis. Can either of you direct me to that post or shed some light on that information for me.

Increased insulin resistance is what I need to stay away from under all circustances, as I am already insulin resistant and diagnosed with PCOS. But, I feel sooooo much better in ketosis.

Advise please.
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  #5   ^
Old Wed, Oct-13-04, 08:05
jagbender's Avatar
jagbender jagbender is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,829
 
Plan: Atkins /NHE/CKD
Stats: 289/219/200 Male 5' 8"
BF:41%/20%/18%
Progress: 79%
Location: West Michigan
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  #6   ^
Old Wed, Oct-13-04, 08:08
jagbender's Avatar
jagbender jagbender is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,829
 
Plan: Atkins /NHE/CKD
Stats: 289/219/200 Male 5' 8"
BF:41%/20%/18%
Progress: 79%
Location: West Michigan
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Some supplements that may help.
Vanadyl Sulphate
Chromium
Alpha lipoic acid
Taurine
Glutamine

Jag
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  #7   ^
Old Wed, Oct-13-04, 21:15
stayfit's Avatar
stayfit stayfit is offline
New Member
Posts: 13
 
Plan: tkd
Stats: 150/146.5/120
BF:
Progress: 12%
Location: Nashville
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Thanks jagbender. Great info!! I didn't find anything about ketosis increasing insulin resistance, though. Did I miss something. There is so much info, I may have read right over it.

Thanks again!
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  #8   ^
Old Thu, Oct-14-04, 08:36
jagbender's Avatar
jagbender jagbender is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,829
 
Plan: Atkins /NHE/CKD
Stats: 289/219/200 Male 5' 8"
BF:41%/20%/18%
Progress: 79%
Location: West Michigan
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I feel that Ketosis wouls actually increase insulin sensativity!
Ketosis is induced by lack of carbs, If you are keeping carbs low and not eating too much protein at one sitting your insulin levels as a whole will be lower than on a high carb diet.
Insulin resistance is from the body creating insulin to reduce blood sugar. I am no doctor but my understanding is if you eat high carbs all the time the body is producing insulin to remove high blood sugars. Constant pounding insulin and the cells becone resisant to the effects of the insulin. I feel if you drop the amount of insulin in your body your cells will slowly become more receptive to the insulin.
I bet you thunder could let us know a bit more on the subject.

Jag
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  #9   ^
Old Thu, Oct-14-04, 08:39
jagbender's Avatar
jagbender jagbender is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,829
 
Plan: Atkins /NHE/CKD
Stats: 289/219/200 Male 5' 8"
BF:41%/20%/18%
Progress: 79%
Location: West Michigan
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Dietary Ketosis Accelerates Results

Some life extension experts are taking the low glycemic approach to an extreme -- with excellent results. Very low carbohydrate diets such as the well-known Atkins diet produce a state of benign dietary ketosis (BDK), which has been found to have an exceptionally rejuvenating effect on the biological terrain. The consumption of about thirty or fewer carbohydrates a day may promote a myriad of advantages, including longevity and weight loss, and the reversal many of the conditions associated with aging. The BDK diet has all the benefits of the low glycemic diet, and also offsets cravings, discourages yeast infections (candida), balances mood disorders, and reverses heart disease. (4)

Being in ketosis is the quickest, safest, and healthiest way to control hyperinsulinism and burn off excess body fat. The key to its effectiveness is a shift in the body’s fuel supply. Several studies have shown that as carbohydrate intake is sufficiently lowered, the metabolism shifts from a glucose-based energy supply to one that utilizes the body’s own fat. This mechanism, called lipolysis, occurs during sleep, fasting, and when insulin levels are low. (6)

After two days without carbohydrates, the absence of glucose induces lower insulin levels which cause the desirable metabolic shift. As lipolysis begins, the body enters into ketosis. First, fats (triglycerides) are split into glycerol and free fatty acids. These are then broken down into simple compounds called ketone bodies, which in turn are used as fuel by the brain and muscle.

The degree of fat utilization can be inferred by measuring blood or urine levels of ketones. The level of ketones in the urine can be measured at home with Ketostix®, which are available over-the-counter (OTC) at any pharmacy. A slight state of ketosis is reflected by a light peach color. The more ketones that are released, the deeper the state of ketosis, and the darker the shade of the stick. Purple, which reflects the deepest state of ketosis, also indicates that maximum fat loss is occurring. However since insufficient water intake can cause concentrated urine (and the false impression of elevated ketones), it is important to drink plenty of water when following this diet.

The basis of the BDK diet is proteins, fats and very low carbohydrate-containing foods, with meals consisting of eggs, fish, fowl, meat, cheese, dairy cream, non-starchy vegetables, herbs, and spices. Breakfast might consist of an egg and cheese omelette with a side of bacon; lunch, a tuna salad with greens and creamy dressing; and for dinner, steak and lobster drenched with butter and a side of sauteed broccoli. It is surprisingly simple to follow, and is satisfying as well. (4)
http://www.smart-publications.com/a...ulin-smart.html
Jag
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  #10   ^
Old Thu, Oct-14-04, 08:49
jagbender's Avatar
jagbender jagbender is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,829
 
Plan: Atkins /NHE/CKD
Stats: 289/219/200 Male 5' 8"
BF:41%/20%/18%
Progress: 79%
Location: West Michigan
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We have to rember that there is a acidoketosis (diabetic)
and dietary induces ketosis.
The dietary induce Ketosis is not harmful but the acidoketosis
can be very harmful to a diabetic.

Jag
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  #11   ^
Old Thu, Oct-14-04, 18:10
stayfit's Avatar
stayfit stayfit is offline
New Member
Posts: 13
 
Plan: tkd
Stats: 150/146.5/120
BF:
Progress: 12%
Location: Nashville
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Great info jagbender. Thanks. If I continue on a very low carb diet, would you suggest eating carbs right before a workout? I guess this would be considered TKD, huh?

My original question about increased resistance after coming out of ketosis was prompted because of wanting to do NHE, but I thought I read somewhere that the NHE fat burning plan includes carbs because of this reason. I guess I was seeing things.

Im just going to stick with what I feel best doing which is very low carb. I just don't want to be yo-yoing with fat weight.

Thanks again for the info!
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  #12   ^
Old Fri, Oct-15-04, 07:04
jagbender's Avatar
jagbender jagbender is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,829
 
Plan: Atkins /NHE/CKD
Stats: 289/219/200 Male 5' 8"
BF:41%/20%/18%
Progress: 79%
Location: West Michigan
Default

I have been doing NHE for a while and am having great results.
If you read the book it is a very well researched program.
I have been reading and re reading the book. The carb load (s)
are very controlled.
I don't see why you would be more insulin resistant because of the NHE plan? The whole objective of NHE is to get your hormones in balance. I believe it as a very good plan.

Jag
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  #13   ^
Old Fri, Oct-15-04, 07:08
jagbender's Avatar
jagbender jagbender is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,829
 
Plan: Atkins /NHE/CKD
Stats: 289/219/200 Male 5' 8"
BF:41%/20%/18%
Progress: 79%
Location: West Michigan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stayfit
My original question about increased resistance after coming out of ketosis was prompted because of wanting to do NHE, but I thought I read somewhere that the NHE fat burning plan includes carbs because of this reason.

Actually RF does NOT reccomend eating carbs before, during or after workouts. The carb loads are scheduled on non lifting days.
Rob reccomends a protein shake and some fats post workout to continue the fat burning process.

Jag
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  #14   ^
Old Fri, Oct-15-04, 21:05
stayfit's Avatar
stayfit stayfit is offline
New Member
Posts: 13
 
Plan: tkd
Stats: 150/146.5/120
BF:
Progress: 12%
Location: Nashville
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I found it! Here is the quote I was beginning to think I dreamt up. Built wrote this is the NHE overview thread. This is the reason I questioned myself about staying in ketosis. I don't want any form of increased IR if I come out of ketosis. The reason Built gives for being in ketosis the entire time for the bulking version of NHE makes complete sense. Apparantly since your body has had very low or no insulin present in its system, there is an increased rush of insulin after injesting carbs which causes a bulking effect and I would think increases muscle development. It seems kind of like what your body does after starvation or cutting calories too low. When you finally put food in your system it stores absolutely everything since it was deprived.

This explanation was in response to another member wondering why the bulking phase is a ketogenic type diet and the cutting phase is not ketogenic

Built's explanation below:

"I believe it has to do with the insulin resistance that follows a period of keto dieting that stimulates the GH and test response for the bulking phase.

For the cutting phase, the generally low carbs keep insulin and glucagon primed for fat burning. The carb load meal is to refuel glycogen, and to prevent the decline in thyroid associated with dieting.

While these responses are true for BOTH versions of NHE, in the bulking phase, fat burning is sub-optimal to allow for optimal anabolic response, while in the cutting phase, the reverse is true."

Jagbender---I think I'm going to take your advise and try NHE. Apparently ketosis may not be a good thing in the long run for someone already IR. How are you measuring your results......scale, bf%, tape measure or all. What are your results?
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