Maybe so, Nancy, but when I read the list of foods high in K2, it was like a shopping list for me and Janine - all our favorite foods were there - for me, ghee, goose liver, egg yolk, hamburger, beef liver and sauerkraut; for her, cheese, salami, egg, butter and bacon. Many of those have A, D, and multiple minerals as well. Not so difficult!

I guess go discuss it with Dr. Cannell and the other researchers that published the paper on Retinol and D. He does accept questions and answer them in his newsletter, perhaps he could help you resolve that question.

He does have interesting things to say about his reception at WAPF.

Vitamin D works in concert with other nutrients and co-factors. Just because it hasn't been stated outright in the newsletter does not mean that it may not be true; However, you may wish to note this excerpt from the most recent Vitamin D Coucil Newsletter:

Yeah, but you're not obsessing over having to take them at a particular time with another vitamin. I take K2 and Magnesium but not because I feel like I have to because I'm taking D3, I just think they're healthy and I'm not sure I get enough of either.

Okay, Nancy, you convinced me to go look up Dr. Cannell. I think he may be right about some things - The WAPF article I just read said that cod liver oil didn't have much K2. Weston A. Price combined cod liver oil with high K2 butter oil, so that suggests to me that Cannell was right, at least as far as to say modern cod liver oil should not be taken on its own.

But I detect a bit of religion in his own tone here:



Cannell refers to several studies. Obviously the studies where pregnant women took cod liver oil are relevant, but when he says "The crux of the problem is that a form of vitamin A, retinoic acid, weakly activates the vitamin D response element on the gene and perhaps blocks vitamin D's more robust activation," I'm a little suspicious. The WAPF site claims that retinoic acid is a synthetic form of Vitamin A, so presumably any studies related to retinoic acid would not be relevant to cod liver oil. Now, I've seen errors on the WAPF site before, but I'd like to hear some confirmation on whether cod liver oil contains retinoic acid, and if it's in the same form as the studies that showed its toxicity.

I've been looking for accounts of fatal polar bear liver overdose and I haven't heard any. I wonder, though, if liver is a better food in lower latitudes. The Eskimos don't eat much liver, do they? The people that Price noted for liver consumption lived in Africa. Then again, the people famous for cod liver oil are the Norwegians.

Keep reading, he's got a lot of stuff about Retinol in his newsletter, spread out over several newsletters. He also mentions case reports of bone problems in people eating too much liver.

Yeah, the gorilla diet thing is ridiculous.

I was told by someone that my Vit.D symptoms were due to a lack of magnesium.

I've quit both.

In future years, if I ever happen to feel I'm coming down with the flu, then I'll take a few high doses of D for a few days.

Elsewise, "nuts!" to both of them.

I had no idea that the bizarre symptoms we were getting here were due to magnesium. I can't tolerate any magnesium supplement, and I'm not spending any more money to find out more names of more magnesium supplements I can't tolerate.

Had I known that I'd need more mag, for high dose D, I would NEVER have high dosed, as I've been intolerant to magnesium my entire life.

Agreed.

I remain completely open minded to the idea of an excess of vitamin A causing problems in the presence of vitamin D deficiency, but I must admit that it is difficult to take recommendations about avoiding all preformed retinols, especially those found in natural, otherwise very nutrient dense foods, from someone who clearly doesn't share my views (and many other individuals) on human evolution and diet.

I have to partially agree. Retinoic acid in the context of a study like the one cited by the D council is a synthetic substance, probably used in isolation and directly as retinoic acid, which doesn't seem to follow nature's laws (loosing sight of the forest for the trees kind of thing); However, we humans do make and use retinoic acid, which is converted from dietary retinol (from cod liver oil, liver, butter, eggs, etc.) by retinol dehydrogenase to retinal, and then irreversibly oxidised to all-trans retinoic acid and finally isomerized into 9-cis retinoic acid.

But in such an experiment that uses direct retinoic acid, I would agree that this would not seem to be the same as using the natural parent forms of the nutrient (retinol) that are governed by certain controls in the body to regulate its conversion into the more active metabolites (like retinoic acid, etc.).

Even so, recent information from the WAPF identifies the importance of adequate vitamin A and 9-cis-retinoic acid in the following excerpt:

Additionally...

The lesson with that is to not forget that cod liver oil contains a myriad of components, and to conclude it is dangerous simply based on its vitamin A content is probably over-simplification of the matter.

There have been reports of fatal polar bear liver overdose though most occurred many years ago.

I still look at that as a scare tactic though. There is no denying that polar bear liver is toxic. Polar bear liver has over 3 million IU of vitamin A per 3 ounces. Beef liver has over 3,000 IU of vitamin A per 4 ounces. So polar bear liver has over 1,000 times more vitamin A per 3 ounces raw than beef liver or any other animal liver even whale liver... There really is no comparison.

See my rant here http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthre...min#post6212936

Hi there Lil' annie,

There are ways to get magnesium which don't involve ingesting it, such as putting Epsom Salts in a bath or foot bath (but only in lukewarm water, as it will heat you up) or using magnesium chloride in your bathwater. This way you will get your magnesium via your skin and not have any GI problems.

At least, that's what I've heard: I haven't ever actually tried it myself. I would google both magnesium chloride and Epsom Salts and see what you find. Other sources of natural magnesium which are well absorbed are bone broths (beef, chicken etc) and nuts. However, some would advise you to soak the nuts overnight and then to dry them out to get rid of the enzyme inhibitors.

Sorry to hear that you are intolerant to magnesium supplements. It really is an important mineral so you really need to make sure you're getting it in another form.

amanda

I mentioned earlier in the thread that I cannot take either full baths or foot baths without having violent diarhea, and even sprinkling a teaspoon of epsom salts in my shoes had the same effect - it just took alot longer due to the normally constipating effect of a very low carb diet.

I have celiac disease, and am not going to play around with magnesium supplements, not anytime soon, and in the past, I've already spent hundreds of dollars trying to find a magnesium supplement I could tolerate. I'm not spending more money on that.

I'll simply only take the Vitamin D when I happen to deem it absolutely necessary.

The requirement for extra magnesium certainly could explain why SOME individuals say that Vit.D doesn't help them at all.

If a moderator stumbles across this post - please feel free to delete it - it is a duplicate. Thanks.

I agreee, Z. Thanks for sharing your rant post.

I think it is irresponsible for someone of medical stature in possession of influence to take human liver consumption (most typically from chickens, cows, lamb, goose, and duck) to the ultimate extreme of equating it with consuming polar bear liver. Stating the ill-effects of consuming polar bear liver as justification that our ancestors evolved without consuming vitamin A-rich foods like organs and liver is not correct, IMO. Polar bear liver just happens to be one of the few exceptions because of its known ability to produce toxicity, which traditional cultures were aware of.

“Poison is in everything, and no thing is without poison. The dosage makes it either a poison or a remedy.” - Philipus Aureolus Paracelsus

Advising people to avoid liver consumption partly on the basis that polar bear liver is known to contain toxic levels of vitamin A for a human being is similar to advising people to avoid vitamin D supplementation of say 5K IUs per day because doses of 250K IUs (for example) can produce toxic effects, even though they can both be contained in the same size pill/capsule. A similar analogy might be drawn from wine consumption. It is clearly an overly simplistic generalization on the subject.

“The art of healing comes from nature, not from the physician. Therefore the physician must start from nature, with an open mind.” - Philipus Aureolus Paracelsus

I finally got a chance to look at your rant. I had no idea small fish had such a high ratio of D:A! And that kidneys have more Vitamin D than liver - is that common for land animals? Or is it just that they don't have data on Vitamin D in liver? I dont think the ~ symbol necessarily means 0.

NutritionData does give cod liver oil a pretty high D:A ratio. I think the stuff I have at home, despite being one of the WAPF recommended "clean" brands, has about half as much Vitamin D.

Does canned herring have as much Vitamin D as raw? I love my kippers...

Hmm. Here are my own lookups from NutritionData, for 3oz servings, in IU of A/D:

kippered herring: 113/100
anchovies: 33/~
black & red caviar: 759/195
"mixed species" roe, raw: 251/~

So canned sardines (105/230) are better than kippers.

I wonder if the quality of roe is related to the quality of its vitamins - maybe my cheap carp tarama isn't as nourishing as the fancy sturgeon stuff.