4:1 = Protein:Fat???

I've also increased my exercise where I'm trying to build/ preserve lean mass, which is a good thing to do as we age, and increase mitochondria to enhance overall metabolic health. Weight is not my focus at this time, but it's likely that as I add lean mass, there will be a corresponding increase.

Fat / (Protein + Carb) = 4 : 1 = Classic Ketogenic Diet used in epilepsy treatment.

yes, it is Is your waist half height? Then you are healthy. https://www.dietdoctor.com/how-to-lose-weight#5

Yes, 1 grams of carbs plus protein per 4 grams of fat. A very uptight diet... but one I found effective. No wonder I eventually drifted away from it. The typical day's eating I described for my current diet comes in at 2.75:1.

The description of 4:1 as grams of fat to grams of carbs plus protein makes it sound like carbs and protein are treated interchangeably, but what I've seen for this diet in practice generally has a harder limit on carbs--I've seen bloggers say that if their kids need more food and have already had their carbs for the day, any more food they get will be in the form for protein and fat at the proper ratio, no more carbs.

My higher calorie days actually do drive my carbs up, but usually from heavy cream or creamed coconut, so it's hard for it to get that out of hand.

I stick to basically beef and water right now, I have had to adjust my fat down as I get some effects from overeating. I am never hungry unless I purposely go without food for a few hours after rising. I had some bad effects in the morning so now I do some exercise in the morning and then go about my work. Trying a short fasting window in the morning then eating richly fills me up all day. I did some serious IF FASTING for a typical 16;8 window and I lost my appetite now I have to mentally push myself to eat enough. I only eat fatty ribeyes and they do easily fill me up. I am higher protein in the 100 range I have no carbs, some people just don't do well losing weight with carbs. dairy can derail the process. everyone is different and you can test variations to see what works best. I just would not do well with ground beef totally unsatisfying for me.

I get very fatty ribeye in bulk size at Sam's club, I tell them not to trim the fat off, they will cut the roast for me into normal steaks around I to 1/14 thickness like their regular cuts. this has probably a lot of fat on the edges. easy for me to eat a little too much fat for my needs. I need to maintain weight and lose a little more fat. They have a porterhouse type roast roll I will try this week as it is only $6 and change per pound. my husband likes the tenderloin part so I will trim his out of a couple steaks for his meals. he is not on a diet. plenty of natural fat for the diet. when I have chicken meal I use the extra fat fryed up to make up the lack of necessary fat for the chicken meal. same with the eggs when I have them.

This discussion is hitting me right where I need it to, but still leaves me in the dark about my own situation.

Janet, how can those suggested waist measurements be realistic? You'd think they'd have a ratio listed, not a hard and fast number. Example: For myself, at 62" in height, my 30" waist is reasonable, but what if I were female and 70" tall?

As for the amount of protein (again, looking at this for myself) at age 73 the recommendation for protein consumption is high. Eating to hunger is also a joke because who has hunger in ketosis?

It's no wonder I'm at a loss about what to do. Do I force feed in order to consume enough kcals and protein? See my dilemma?

Thanks for the clarification, and thanks to Janet for the definition of the classic KD used for epilepsy. Now I understand the 4:1 references.

I see your dilemma. No two people will have the same experience. I've noticed that with increased physical activity, I have no problem with hunger; however, I have a quick satiety trigger (which I never had when I was a carb-based eater) and find my hunger shuts off abruptly during a meal. I have to be careful, as there are times when I've stopped eating in response to the satiety signal, and I am hungry early the next morning. Usually, I don't have the desire to eat until mid-day. Like you, I don't want to force feed, so it's something I deal with and in those situations, I'll just have another cup of coffee and wait until my normal eating time.

Thanks JEY100. My waist is less than half of my height, but I still can "pinch an inch" as per the Special K commercial from the 80's. To be honest, I wrote that post off the top of my head, and had not given any serious thought to adjusting my goal weight. However, your reply has caused me to give it more thought, and I have decided to go back to an all meat and dairy diet, for a short while, without counting calories, and eating until satisfied. I just want to see if I settle at a particular weight. I don't plan on giving up vegetables permanently, and I will add them back. Anyway, as the post I originally replied to suggested, I hope we can get a dedicated section to zero carb. My guess is most people only use it as a temporary measure, but I think it would be interesting to hear more about it.

EDIT:

*Just to clarify, I am trying this without vegetables because I think they can skew the results. For example, over the past year, I have gained and lost 5 to 10 lbs based on what I am eating, that I think is not fat gain, but water or fiber in the digestive process. Going with primarily meat should eliminate that water / fiber gain and given me a better gauge*

At a given waist circumference, being able to pinch an inch might be better than not--at least it's subcutaneous and not visceral fat.

Good point

One thing I've noticed over the years when switching between vegan, ovo-lacto vegetarian, SAD and dairy-free carnivore diets is that animal protein increases my energy. I'm 66" and now 64, and I had no energy on 46g (my RDA) of vegan protein, slightly more energy when half my RDA was dairy protein, but a significant increase when I got 46g of protein from meat/poultry/fish.

Many of the nutritionists/doctors saying you need 0.8-1 g (or more) of protein per kg are the same ones pushing mediterranean-type diets, so probably 1/3 to half of that protein is plant-based. Also, most do not distinguish whether those kilograms are current weight, ideal weight, or lean body mass. Most of the studies were done by sports medicine doctors who actually used LBM, not total weight, when setting protein requirements. Rosedale gave a 1-hr interview and it wasn't until the question period afterwards that he clarified that when he said "weight" he meant LBM (since muscles need protein, our bodyfat doesn't), while the average listener was thinking current or ideal weight. My LBM is 48 kg (needing 38-48g protein), my ideal weight is 61 kg (needing 49-61g protein), so I aim to get at least 48g of meat/poultry/egg/fish protein; note that is close to my RDA. For me, the extra protein from vegs, nuts & dairy makes the total higher, but I don't think that they are really worth counting in my case. At 139 lbs & 25% fat, your target range for protein would be similar to mine, bluesinger.

When IFing, I pick my meat/poultry/egg/fish proteins for the day, add enough fat for satiety and a bit of vegs for interest. Typically this is 24g of animal protein in each of two meals, but when I'm really really busy, I make a big salad in a Tupperware with lid, add my animal proteins + fat for the day and eat it during my IF window.

Protein Power & The Zone told me I needed 80g of (mixed) protein, so that's what I ate, but it was probably 45-50g animal protein. Mike Eades pointed to an article about middle-aged women losing more when they increased that to 100g protein. I did that (mostly by adding more chicken breast) for a solid two months and it did work, but I just felt hungrier & thirstier and suspect that the extra protein just caused me to excrete and the extra 2 lbs of weight loss was water.

Now that I am entering senior citizenhood, I am concerned about maintaining muscle mass, so I plan to step up my non-dairy animal protein to a minimum of 60, which is 25% higher than 1.0 X LBM. Seniors eating beany/grainy diets may need 80-100g of protein to build and maintain muscle, but it is probably the ~60g from animal protein that does most of the work, while the rest of the protein causes inflammation … which makes exercise painful.

Have you ever tried giving up the dairy and getting your protein from meat/poultry/fish/eggs? Dairy protein is what caused me to hold on to the last 15 lbs and regain it whenever I added more than 2T of butter per day. Dairy is worse than LC vegetables for many of us. A one-month trial may be beneficial to see if it is a problem for you.

Blame that link on early morning with an iPad..such a pain to copy links but I'm also too lazy to go on the desktop computer.

It is the straight forward waist half height ratio as in these two big British studies: http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=442331 so at 5'2" anything under 31" correlates with "being healthy".

Also Ted Naiman uses W:H, but again Diet Doctor complicates his simple answer by making a table. https://www.dietdoctor.com/simple-w...lth-measurement

Protein Amount:
Phinney and Volek at Virta use yet another formula, Reference Weight. But then they give a simple chart with wide leeway for amount of protein. https://blog.virtahealth.com/how-much-protein-on-keto/ You shouldn't have to force feed protein on Zero Carb, but then they don't count calories.

I'm OK with this chart, it pretty much tracks what was in NANY, that was my start point with Dr. Westman. I have tried cutting down protein a number of times and never felt satisfied. So this chart, or carnivore diet, or Ted Naiman's protein leverage/P:E formula all equate to an amount of protein that is filling and makes me feel good.