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  #301   ^
Old Wed, Mar-13-19, 03:40
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is online now
Posts: 11,911
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/123/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 139%
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
My sister and brother in law have gone carnivore, after some years vegetarian, and then a few years vegan. I hadn't realized it had been that long until she posted it on facebook. Everything she posted about diet while vegetarian/vegan was about animal welfare, now that she's carnivore, it's 50/50 animal welfare through giving animals a more traditional life before harvest--grass fed, free range etc. and various posts about the health benefits of going carnivore...


Which is fine with me, since humans are animals too, and we do need to influence more humane and traditional life outcomes for our domestic animals.

Nothing will be done if it's a bunch of capitalists in one camp and the tiny group of above-it-all vegans doing nothing more about animal rights.
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  #302   ^
Old Wed, Mar-13-19, 06:20
baskington baskington is offline
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Posts: 13
 
Plan: keto
Stats: 156/127.8/125 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 91%
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I have been eating this way for a few months and keto before, and if you don't tend to eat a great variety of foods you will be lacking in vitamins. I have histamines and food sensitivities, so many of the foods, like liver and eggs which provide great variety of those vitamins I have to take suppliments. which I do not do blindly, my bloodwork shows me what I am lacking.

If you eat organ meats, eggs and limited dairy products you do cover your bases. chewing on your bones and or bone broth provide even more. so much can be covered if you tend to eat nose to tail.

my vitamin E is sky high and low on my vitamin D, just a couple highlights and this was when I was keto switching to carnivore several months ago. so eating a bit of spinach will not take care of it all. I love spinach and broccoli and did eat that.

Last edited by baskington : Wed, Mar-13-19 at 06:26.
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  #303   ^
Old Sat, Apr-27-19, 14:15
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,203
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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Finally listened to three recent podcasts on Human Performance Outliers about Oxalates. In some vegetables (spinach, rubarb, broccoli are high) seeds and nuts (almonds, peanuts, some spices, turmeric, dark chocolate, tea!) so even if eating keto, it is still possible to end up with damage from oxalates. Keto eliminates many of the worse grain and root veg oxalates, but if our treats use almond flour, snack on nuts, treats with dark chocolate, drink tea!....could joint pain return? Is this why carnivore works well for some?

Good resource on oxalates, Sally Norton was on the two most recent podcasts, two good food lists linked within her website: https://sallyknorton.com/

NEW DietDoctor Guide to The Carnivore Diet: https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/carnivore

Last edited by JEY100 : Sun, Apr-28-19 at 08:32.
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  #304   ^
Old Sat, May-11-19, 07:57
Barbara20 Barbara20 is offline
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Posts: 40
 
Plan: Dirty Carnivore
Stats: 140/140/000 Female 5' 5"
BF:
Progress: 0%
Location: Ontario Canada
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Good to see some discussion of Carnivore. It does seem strange that we can push aside all of the foods we have been told to eat and still feel our bodies what they need. Sometimes I crave beef! What does that mean? I have been trying to watch as much online on Carnivore ways of eating as I have time for. Fascinating. Not for all but there is a place for it, I think. Thanks for the links, JEY100
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  #305   ^
Old Tue, May-14-19, 03:57
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,203
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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There have been many discussions about PROTEIN all over this forum, and a previous thread with Prof Don Layman, but canít find a good home for this podcast so Zero Carb it is.

An hour and half interview covering amounts needed, other macro and micro nutrients like calcium, magnesium with it, correcting osteoporosis, protein is OK if have kidney disease, amounts needed (higher) and fasting (donít) when Older, and many more. Prof Layman is now retired but still writing and giving talks, there is a link to his research page in show notes. They asked most common questions about protein and he gives clear detailed answers. There are some good videos of his talks on protein in the past, and this new interview is excellent. If you are not a fan of Dr Valter Longo and his FMD (now with candy), Don Layman gives a list of the many ways their research went off the rails. Now Retired with a Twitter account

http://humanperformanceoutliers.lib...ssor-don-layman

Last edited by JEY100 : Tue, May-14-19 at 04:24.
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  #306   ^
Old Tue, May-14-19, 05:28
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is online now
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Posts: 13,740
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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I respect Dr. Longo when it comes to the modified fast--what he actually studies. When it comes to what the ongoing diet should be, most of the time, when people are not fasting, it's a bit different. Layman criticizes Longo for a study in the realm of epidemiology, with one-day food recall, etc. Mentions people supposedly eating 40 grams of protein a day... lots of people in the research community give epidemiology more credit than I think it deserves, but that doesn't mean they can't do a good double-blinded intervention study. It might inspire them to interpret the results of their intervention somewhat differently, perhaps wrongly, but if they accurately report the actual results of the intervention, some speculation in the discussion section of the study can maybe be forgiven.

I feel like I'm an exception to Layman's advice for protein intake--but reading this today;

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5278948/

I find statements like;

Quote:
The meal threshold for protein to induce muscle protein synthesis is influenced by physical activity and age of the subjects. Acknowledging inherent risks for comparing dietary treatments across studies, the optimum meal threshold for older sedentary adults appears to be >25 g protein (43Ė45), whereas healthy, young, active men respond to meals with 15 g protein (63). Furthermore, exercise enhances the protein synthesis response in older adults (44, 45) and appears to reduce the minimum meal threshold (45).


So while his protein recommendations are higher than the RDA, he doesn't make the claim that nobody will be okay at less than that three meals a day, 30 grams per meal that he mentions whenever he's interviewed--as is done with the RDA itself, it's a recommendation supposed to ensure that those with the highest requirement are getting enough.

I've tried in the past to shove large amounts of protein into my muscle by sheer force of will. Lifting weights works better.
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  #307   ^
Old Tue, May-14-19, 14:44
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is online now
Posts: 11,911
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/123/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 139%
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbara20
Good to see some discussion of Carnivore. It does seem strange that we can push aside all of the foods we have been told to eat and still feel our bodies what they need. Sometimes I crave beef! What does that mean? I have been trying to watch as much online on Carnivore ways of eating as I have time for. Fascinating. Not for all but there is a place for it, I think. Thanks for the links, JEY100


I started keto in mid January and for me to reach ketosis took very low levels: half the time I'm carnivore/zero carb and I can definitely eat only meat for days at a time.
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  #308   ^
Old Thu, May-16-19, 10:25
CityGirl8 CityGirl8 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 856
 
Plan: Protein Power, IF
Stats: 238/204/145 Female 5'8"
BF:53.75%/46.6%/25%
Progress: 37%
Location: PNW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
So while his protein recommendations are higher than the RDA, he doesn't make the claim that nobody will be okay at less than that three meals a day, 30 grams per meal that he mentions whenever he's interviewed--as is done with the RDA itself, it's a recommendation supposed to ensure that those with the highest requirement are getting enough.

I've tried in the past to shove large amounts of protein into my muscle by sheer force of will. Lifting weights works better.
It's clear from all the N=1 experiences I've read of people on low-carb diets that there's quite a range where people will be healthy. But I also really appreciate Dr. Layman's work, because I find that I naturally settle down somewhere close to his recommendation. I came to low carb by reading the Drs. Eades work (Protein Power) and upped my protein to around 80g-90g/day years ago when I started following their plan. Lately, I've been tracking everything I eat, but don't limit it and find that I'm somewhere between 80g and 100g almost every day, typically pretty close to 90g. My 90g/day is way under what Layman thinks is "high protein" (he thinks of that as over 175g or so).

I'd been really frustrated recently with all the "keto" style recommendations to keep protein low. I really respect Jason Fung and was shocked to hear him say he thought the RDA was more than adequate. I really didn't know what to make of that. I was starting to worry I was doing something wrong. But after watching a presentation by Dr. Layman and reading some NIH studies showing that adults over 50 probably need 25% more protein than the RDA to prevent sarcopenia, I decided to keep on doing what I'm doing. I also read Amy Berger's blog on how people need to stop freaking out about whether protein turns to glucose--it will, but only on demand, if the body needs glucose, not just for funsies.

I don't have the greatest satiety signals, but my body will tell me when it's done with protein. I've gone as high as 120g-130g and the next day the idea of protein kind-of grosses me out. Under 80g or so for several days in a row and I start to crave big piles of meat.
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  #309   ^
Old Fri, May-17-19, 10:21
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 3,107
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CityGirl8
It's clear from all the N=1 experiences I've read of people on low-carb diets that there's quite a range where people will be healthy. But I also really appreciate Dr. Layman's work, because I find that I naturally settle down somewhere close to his recommendation. I came to low carb by reading the Drs. Eades work (Protein Power) and upped my protein to around 80g-90g/day years ago when I started following their plan. Lately, I've been tracking everything I eat, but don't limit it and find that I'm somewhere between 80g and 100g almost every day, typically pretty close to 90g. My 90g/day is way under what Layman thinks is "high protein" (he thinks of that as over 175g or so).

I'd been really frustrated recently with all the "keto" style recommendations to keep protein low. I really respect Jason Fung and was shocked to hear him say he thought the RDA was more than adequate. I really didn't know what to make of that. I was starting to worry I was doing something wrong. But after watching a presentation by Dr. Layman and reading some NIH studies showing that adults over 50 probably need 25% more protein than the RDA to prevent sarcopenia, I decided to keep on doing what I'm doing. I also read Amy Berger's blog on how people need to stop freaking out about whether protein turns to glucose--it will, but only on demand, if the body needs glucose, not just for funsies.

I don't have the greatest satiety signals, but my body will tell me when it's done with protein. I've gone as high as 120g-130g and the next day the idea of protein kind-of grosses me out. Under 80g or so for several days in a row and I start to crave big piles of meat.

You're right, CG8, there are many views about the quantity of protein consumption, some conflicting. After watching the following video about Bikman's recent research, I increased my protein consumption and have done very well. Note that he confirms that if you're doing increased protein starting from a SAD WOE, the results are very different than what one would experience from a low carb WOE. The information in this video is now my reference point. Note also recent research that shows that increased protein consumption in older people is also beneficial.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3fO5aTD6JU
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  #310   ^
Old Sat, May-18-19, 09:01
Barbara20 Barbara20 is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 40
 
Plan: Dirty Carnivore
Stats: 140/140/000 Female 5' 5"
BF:
Progress: 0%
Location: Ontario Canada
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Thanks so much for putting up the Bikman link. Great information. Personally I have quite a low fat tolerance and my GI tract talks to me when I 'eat too much.' I don't measure anything so this is a good way to know what's enough and what's too much - never fails.
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  #311   ^
Old Sat, May-18-19, 13:19
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Posts: 3,107
 
Plan: Ketogenic (LCHFKD)
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
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You're welcome. Bikman is doing some interesting and valuable research. This information informs us that quantity of protein consumed is much more forgiving if you're starting from something other than a SAD baseline. Each one of us is different at different ages, so it makes sense that we all respond differently to protein quantity, and our n=1 experiments can help zero in on the amount that's right for each one of us.
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  #312   ^
Old Sat, May-18-19, 14:57
deirdra's Avatar
deirdra deirdra is offline
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Posts: 4,002
 
Plan: HF/vLC/GF,CF,SF
Stats: 197/136/150 Female 66 inches
BF:
Progress: 130%
Location: Alberta
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Is Bikman's 1-2g protein/kg based on total body weight or lean body mass? He doesn't say in the video and many of these researchers say "weight" (which laypeople take as meaning the number on the bathroom scale) when they mean LBM.

Last edited by deirdra : Sat, May-18-19 at 15:20.
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  #313   ^
Old Sat, May-18-19, 20:26
Dodger's Avatar
Dodger Dodger is offline
Posts: 8,410
 
Plan: Paleoish
Stats: 225/170/175 Male 71.5 inches
BF:18%
Progress: 110%
Location: Longmont, Colorado
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deirdra
Is Bikman's 1-2g protein/kg based on total body weight or lean body mass? He doesn't say in the video and many of these researchers say "weight" (which laypeople take as meaning the number on the bathroom scale) when they mean LBM.

He says body weight a few seconds after 33:40 of the video.
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  #314   ^
Old Sun, May-19-19, 06:49
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is online now
Posts: 11,911
 
Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/123/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 139%
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GRB5111
You're welcome. Bikman is doing some interesting and valuable research. This information informs us that quantity of protein consumed is much more forgiving if you're starting from something other than a SAD baseline. Each one of us is different at different ages, so it makes sense that we all respond differently to protein quantity, and our n=1 experiments can help zero in on the amount that's right for each one of us.


Myself, every time I try to "moderate" my protein I wind up craving MEAT. While lowering my carbs to <10 a day makes the biggest difference, by far.

By not trying to eat a balanced diet, while fearlessly eliminating all but the least carby fruits and vegetables, I have cut waaaaaay down on my supplements, started healing from my symptoms, and feel energy return.

That's results I wish to replicate.
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  #315   ^
Old Sun, May-19-19, 12:15
CityGirl8 CityGirl8 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 856
 
Plan: Protein Power, IF
Stats: 238/204/145 Female 5'8"
BF:53.75%/46.6%/25%
Progress: 37%
Location: PNW
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This is a great (although long-ish) presentation by Donald Layman on protein and how much he thinks we need. I originally saw it when someone else on the forum linked to it and I think it should be required viewing ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KlLmxPDTuQ
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