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  #271   ^
Old Wed, Jan-23-19, 11:15
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
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Thanks, Janet, good stuff!
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  #272   ^
Old Wed, Jan-23-19, 12:41
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is offline
Posts: 11,271
 
Plan: Atkins DANDR
Stats: 210/188/160 Female 5'4"
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I like this part:

Quote:
But what about gut health? Shouldnít fiber help with idiopathic constipation (i.e. constipation with no known cause)? Apparently not. Singaporean researchers found that ďpatients who stopped or reduced dietary fiber had significant improvement in their symptoms while those who continued on a high fiber diet had no changeĒ. They conclude that ď Idiopathic constipation and its associated symptoms can be effectively reduced by stopping or even lowering the intake of dietary fiberĒ [55]. It seems like the carnivore dietís lack of plant fiber isnít obviously harmful Ė although this doesnít entail that any amount of fiber more than zero is bad.

In recent years, claims have shifted toward ideas about colon health. The idea is that because fibre is fermented into short chain fatty acids (SCFAs), and because SCFAs are readily used for energy by the colon, and because one SCFA, butyrate, has positive effects on colon health when itís metabolised, that therefore we need fibre to keep our colons healthy. There are many issues with this chain of reasoning.

One is that fibre isnít the only source of SCFAs. We can, and do, make them out of proteins as well [56]. Second, just because a cell uses something for energy doesnít mean itís necessarily the best source of energy. Alcohol is readily used in the bloodstream, above other sources. That doesnít make it good. Third, the most important metabolite of butyrate is a ketone body, D-beta-hydroxybutyrate, and itís not clear how much of the positive effects of butyrate would be met just as well by a ketogenic diet (see my in-depth blog post on this).

Another relevant observation is that one specific type of bacteria, Akkermansia Muciniphila, is increased on ketogenic diets [57] and when fasting [58] (suggesting it isnít from any plant foods consumed on ketogenic diets). This bacteria is widely held to be beneficial, because it correlates inversely with metabolic syndrome. Giving it to mice even delays the development of obesity and insulin resistance [59]. These bacteria live right in the mucosal layer of the colon feeding on the mucous and in turn producing butyrate. So itís quite plausible that a ketogenic diet increases the availability of butyrate to the colon due to bacteria, but not the ones that make it out of plant fibre.

It makes very little sense to develop a theory of what a healthy gut biome looks like by suggesting it should match the biome of healthy people, and then to turn around and reject a diet that improves someoneís health because the biome doesnít match your previous data. Until we know a lot more, a healthy gut biome should be defined as the gut biome of a healthy person.

While none of these points prove that we wouldnít benefit from more fibre, they point out weaknesses in the pro-fiber arguments. The fibre-for-the-colon arguments are largely speculative. This is another area where some basic research on outcomes in carnivorous diets would be very helpful. Certainly many of the people currently enjoying a carnivore diet are doing it specifically because the lack of fibre reduces inflammation in the colon.
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  #273   ^
Old Thu, Jan-24-19, 11:52
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/123/150 Female 67
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The classic post by Dr. Eades, of Protein Power, on fiber:

Quote:
Before we get to the fiber, letís engage in a sort of thought experiment. Letís assume that way back in the early days of medicine doctors always wanted to see us cough up mucus from our lungs. Since mucus is a kind of breeding ground for all kinds of nasty bacteria, it would make sense in the olden, pre-antibiotic days to want patients to hack up as much of this stuff as possible to get it out of the body where the bacteria could no longer wreak their havoc.


Itís a fine post where he starts with a useful metaphor and covers what we know, and what we refuse to know.

Quote:
All manner of Ďexpertsí from our doctors to our grandparents encourage us to consume plenty of fiber. If we canít get enough from the foods we eat to achieve regularity, we are encouraged to buy supplements. Everyone is on the regularity bandwagon and, by extension, the fiber bandwagon. The much despised Jane Brody has written countless times on the virtues of fiber, WebMD encourages us to get our share, even C. Everett Coop exhorts us to keep the fiber coming. And, despite numerous studies showing that fiber doesnít really do squat for us health-wise, everyone continues to recommend it.

To paraphrase John Huston: Evidence? We ainít got no evidence. We donít need no evidence. We donít have to show you no stinking evidence.


For lots more information about the fallacy of fiber, consult Gutsense.org

In addition, fiber is probably essential in a grain heavy diet because we all know what flour and water makes: paste.

Cement.
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  #274   ^
Old Sun, Jan-27-19, 12:24
Canari Canari is offline
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Plan: Carnivore 95%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBear
For lots more information about the fallacy of fiber, consult Gutsense.org.

This is fabulous to have a confirmation of what I felt! It is not easy to go upstream, so now I am happy to have this website to back my ways of eating...

And now I can have hens again in my garden, as I dont mind if they eat the veggies!

Thanks for this gem!
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  #275   ^
Old Mon, Jan-28-19, 11:43
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teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
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https://www.livinlavidalowcarb.com/...eto-hacking-md/

Jimmy Moore's trying a 28 day keto carnivore experiment. Seems to be working so far. He points out that maybe cancelling his subscription to the keto cookie of the month club is why it's working for him. (My words, but I think a fair paraphrase). Which is the sort of thing he only seems to say when he doesn't have protein cookies, chips, etc. on this breath. I say this in full hypocrisy, I eat keto pancakes and ice cream just about daily--but these work more in maintenance for me, and clearly my issues aren't exactly the same as Jimmy's.

One more example of more or less the same thing working, once again, for Jimmy. He went so far as to say that he might try this for a full year. Hopefully if he does, he won't do what he did with nutritional ketosis--eat a certain way for a full year, measure everything, and then declare that what was working for him--for a full year--has stopped working, when he's actually changed a bunch of things.
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  #276   ^
Old Mon, Jan-28-19, 12:21
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is offline
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Plan: Atkins DANDR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBear

For lots more information about the fallacy of fiber, consult Gutsense.org

In addition, fiber is probably essential in a grain heavy diet because we all know what flour and water makes: paste.

Cement.


I bought the book and it is so full of great information. So happy to read confirmation of what I've had to learn the hard way. At one point he says that Bran is like sandpaper to the Colon. I told this to a GI doctor and he just looked at me with no response. That was right after he told me to eat fiber and said oatmeal or cream of wheat are good but if I didn't want to eat that I could just eat oatmeal cookies because that's what he does
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  #277   ^
Old Mon, Jan-28-19, 16:53
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
https://www.livinlavidalowcarb.com/...eto-hacking-md/

Jimmy Moore's trying a 28 day keto carnivore experiment. Seems to be working so far. He points out that maybe cancelling his subscription to the keto cookie of the month club is why it's working for him. (My words, but I think a fair paraphrase).


He should probably get some therapy. The physical part is fixed with low carb, but the emotional part is still not addressed. I should know: I had an eating disorder.
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  #278   ^
Old Mon, Jan-28-19, 16:58
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meme#1
I bought the book and it is so full of great information. So happy to read confirmation of what I've had to learn the hard way.


We live in an age of gifted amateurs and dogmatic experts.

Everything the Gutsense man researched was out there already! Just ignored!
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  #279   ^
Old Tue, Jan-29-19, 06:25
Canari Canari is offline
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Plan: Carnivore 95%
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I have found a few.... let's not say mistake as this is too strong, but slightly unacurate ways of saying, in "gutsense", as I have read it all since the other day! I also do not like some fillers in some product, and the fact that he thought about removing iron - to self customize - and did not do the same for vitamin A, that we can be in excess pretty easily as we age. Also his B12 is the cyano form...

And as everybody most of the time, he is very specialized. So there is one thing missing: fixing the lymphatic system.

Also, about the emotional part, actually before the emotional part there is the autonomic nerves part.

Both the lymphatic system and the autonomic nervous system - ANS - are very developed in the gut.

For the lymphatic system, look at ayurveda. For the ANS do not look for normal therapy but somatic therapies, as these are the only ones that can help when the physiological defense system has been triggered. So you have "organic intelligence", "somatic practise", "somatic experiencing", "Hannah somatics". Most are talk + touch, and if the person is a body worker and use biodynamic cranio-sacral, even better! Feldenkrais also is good with pains and regulates the ANS.
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  #280   ^
Old Tue, Jan-29-19, 06:38
Canari Canari is offline
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Plan: Carnivore 95%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meme#1
I bought the book and it is so full of great information. So happy to read confirmation of what I've had to learn the hard way. At one point he says that Bran is like sandpaper to the Colon. I told this to a GI doctor and he just looked at me with no response. That was right after he told me to eat fiber and said oatmeal or cream of wheat are good but if I didn't want to eat that I could just eat oatmeal cookies because that's what he does

I liked your quote about it above. In another place maybe, he says that fermenting fibers does not make only butyrate! It also makes alcohol and something else I do not remember. He also says that the result of these is killing some of the bacterias, so in the end it is not helping to ferment fibers.

Well, we are not ruminants.... Fermenting is an option for starvation times, but should not be the rule. People started to eat less animal food because of over-population! It is obvious in India for example, and also in all the places where meet is called "food of the rich", meaning that you do not eat meat just because you cannot.

The best way to make people respect a good rule is to put it in the religious rules, as they did in Budhism. But same problem as what muslims did for pork, it is written in stone. In Polynesia where people lived in small islands, they were looking at their population much better! They would indeed decide a fish to be taboo - a polynesian word by the way - and then would say that the spirits said it was no more taboo. The priests would decide this based on the quantity of fish.
Many fish should be declared taboo nowadays for some years! Actually the spirit of the a species is indeed sending a visible sign when they start to be in less numbers, and we pretend we do not hear spirits, the essence of life!

Maybe he should also add the studies about gorillas' guts. Some people use our ape relatives to convince us about eating fruits and leaves mainly. Chimps also eat meat but gorillas seem not to. Anyway, just look at the % between chest and belly.... who wants their belly? Actually the length of their guts is not the same as us humans. And when they eat a lot, they are known to spit part of the fiber.... People who juice are using this argument to convince people that juicing is better than eating all the fiber.

About the gut using proteins the same way as fibers, yes I have read this before, and they said that meat also has its own "fiber": all the gelatinous parts full of glycine...

And in cancer research, it has been said that it is useless to try to starve cancer cells by going zero carbs because those cells are also able to ferment glycine from the proteins.... We cannot say that simple form of life are stupid, because they know very well how to adapt!
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  #281   ^
Old Tue, Jan-29-19, 06:47
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
Stats: 220/123/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 139%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canari
For the ANS do not look for normal therapy but somatic therapies, as these are the only ones that can help when the physiological defense system has been triggered. So you have "organic intelligence", "somatic practise", "somatic experiencing", "Hannah somatics". Most are talk + touch, and if the person is a body worker and use biodynamic cranio-sacral, even better! Feldenkrais also is good with pains and regulates the ANS.


I need a Zero Balncing appointment. That does wonders for me.

And you make very good points. There is no ONE answer, since bodies vary as much as the environments they have adapted to. N = 1 is how we have to do it.
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  #282   ^
Old Tue, Jan-29-19, 09:06
dcc0455 dcc0455 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
https://www.livinlavidalowcarb.com/...eto-hacking-md/

I say this in full hypocrisy, I eat keto pancakes and ice cream just about daily--


Are you eating a specific brand (low carb?) ice cream or homemade?
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  #283   ^
Old Tue, Jan-29-19, 09:18
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
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Just heavy cream whipped with some sugar-free flavouring. Sometimes I'll add an egg yolk, it won't get as fluffy, but makes it harder to end up overwhipping and ending up in butter territory. Usually something like mio or sugar-free koolaid drops, but sometimes some instant coffee or cocoa powder with splenda. I bought some licorice (anise) flavouring at Walmart once when it was on sale for a dollar, that was really good. I would have emptied the shelves if I'd known they were going to stop selling the stuff at any price once they ran out.
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  #284   ^
Old Wed, Jan-30-19, 03:34
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is offline
To Good Health!
Posts: 11,204
 
Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
Stats: 222/171/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/25.3%/24%
Progress: 96%
Location: NC
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Oh no, Jimmy now doing carnivore? Iíd prefer the spokesperson for a ZC lifestyle be Shawn Baker and Amber OHearn, not his sad case. If it is "working for him" it is because he is not lying about how many carbs he eats. An Egg Fast worked for him too...whenever he truly keeps carbs below 20g he loses weight. A one type of protein diet serves to overcome his delusion he can eat watermelon and beignets and claim he's on a Ketogenic diet. It's not the magic of meat.

And some meat history...from Dr Fung's The Diabetes Code

Quote:
In 1797, the Scottish military surgeon John Rollo became the first physician to formulate a treatment that carried any reasonable expectation of success. He had observed substantial improvement in a diabetic patient eating in all -meat diet. Given the uniformly grim prognosis of diabetes this approach was a breakthrough. This extremely low carbohydrate diet was the first diabetic treatment of its kind.


I was re-reading a few sections of books on the early history of fasting for diabetes treatment, when the Carnivore Diet was also a treatment. Missed that the first read, but now that ZC is the rage, it stands out as an option to fasting.

Last edited by JEY100 : Wed, Jan-30-19 at 04:02.
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  #285   ^
Old Wed, Jan-30-19, 07:20
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEY100
Oh no, Jimmy now doing carnivore?


That was my reaction.

I'm getting ready to make steak and eggs. I'm doing less than ten carbs a day. Fiber is so elusive on this kind of diet net works out almost the same.

Which is okay with me. My tum is very fiber sensitive, to the point that flax crackers and the like cause me trouble.
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