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  #346   ^
Old Mon, Jul-01-19, 04:49
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is online now
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Plan: Epi-Paleo/IF
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaisyDawn
I've also had this experience-my caffeine intake used to be quite a bit higher (4+ cans of diet coke plus 3 cups of coffee every day). If I missed one of my regular doses I'd get horrible headaches, but since going HFLC I've completely cut out the diet soda and drink anywhere from 1-3 cups of coffee a day, without any headaches at all. Coffee/caffeine has become something I drink because I enjoy (especially in the morning instead of eating), but I don't rely on it anymore and I don't notice any physical changes if I don't have it.


Likewise. Coffee on Keto is like a whole different beast.

I came from SAD baseline of 300 to a new lowcarb baseline of 50, to get down to my goal of a size ten US women's pants. My carbs would dip into the 20s more and more as I got closer to goal, but now my average would be in the forties: I thought I had found my maintenance spot.

However, dropping 20 carbs from that new low, and making it my new high: the difference was just as dramatic. And I'm now a size 8.
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  #347   ^
Old Mon, Jul-01-19, 05:48
PilotGal PilotGal is offline
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Plan: LCHF
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PilotGal
now, this is interesting to me, in that I have gone days without coffee for no reason and never experience headaches or withdrawal..
figured the coffee wasn't totally real... figured they added something without our knowledge.. but it could very well be the KETO lifestyle that discontinues the agony of withdrawal..

how very interesting..
thanks for posting this.


I couldn't edit my post, but i wanted to add that I drink 2 pots of coffee a day...
1 pot in the morning, 1 pot through the afternoon.

when i miss a few days, i get no withdrawal.. and I drink a dark roast coffee.. nice and rich.... but weird as it is, i do not get any headaches..

i do remember trying to quit in 1980 and the withdrawal was so bad, I couldn't stand up straight. it was so painful.. that's why I think coffee nowadays isn't completely coffee.. I think they add something to it to fill the contents without losing money. some kind of additive.. it could be chicory. it could be dirt, for all we know.
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  #348   ^
Old Mon, Jul-01-19, 07:38
Canari Canari is offline
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Plan: Carnivore 95%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
I don't have any problem with the idea that a fair number of people have trouble with milk, and certainly avoiding coffee is a good idea for some people. But I don't think the doctor you talked to is right about mixing milk and coffee. The same burden of proof that would be on you to justify the claim just goes to the doctor now--appeal to authority just doesn't work.

I really don't want to be argumentative. But I've seen other unjustified claims--low carb bad for kidneys, bad for bones, causes hypothyroid, leaves people with a glycoprotein deficiency that leads to digestive tract cancers--getting people worried about the wrong things, unsubstantiated claims can really throw people off to the point where they just don't know where to safely turn. I can find any number of doctors who'll say meat kills, with no justification--so a doctor saying something just isn't justification.


That came from 3 different sources and the 1st one mentionned it in the 1980's...

But I have written posts that are more in line with the title, as I am part of the people who are nearly zero carbs and eating mostly carnivore!

My adding about coffee was accessory. It can be helpful for some people to see the difference between consuming milk and coffee separated or together, just in case they are part of the people who have problems with the 2 together. It is part of what can be checked on a personal basis.

The real point about coffee, is how it goes with a carnivore diet. And why.
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  #349   ^
Old Wed, Jul-10-19, 07:35
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teaser teaser is online now
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Plan: mostly milkfat
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2eU96vCCFU

Quote:
Doctor dissects the science of the Carnivore Diet


Dissects it with a wooden spoon...

Mentions that the plural of anecdote isn't data. Except it sort of is, because a single anecdote is data. Just not data you can generalize from--depending on the strength of the observation...

That time doctors injected insulin into a juvenile diabetic for the first time and the kid recovered--that's an anecdote. What sets it aside from bigfoot sightings is the quality of the evidence, not whether it's an anecdote.

He calls Mikhaila Peterson's experience implausible. Mm. I find her explanations for here experience a little implausible--when she gets too specific. Lectins, oxalates, effects on the gut microbiome. Hard to pin down that oxalates in spinach are doing any damage unless you do a trial of just oxalates. So getting specific, that's sketchy. The experience of distress or pain if spinach is taken is another thing, that could be repeatable. I personally had shoulder pain for years. When I went keto it went way down, when I did a trial of carnivore--with most of my carbs coming from heavy cream--it went away. Oxalates? Heck if I know. Plants contain countless compounds. There might be some we've narrowed down to likely candidates, but who knows? Low plant matter might just have me more consistently ketogenic--but being ketogenic might have just lowered the plant matter in my diet.

He mentions that there's no placebo for carnivore, since you know you're eating meat. This is disingenuous, and that's the nice way to put it, since it covers just about every possible diet, at least any that involves eating whole foods.

And he brings up the massive body of epidemiology. How many anecdotes make for data? Once you get up into the thousands, does it start counting?

Points out that every people in the world has had a varied, omnivorous diet. Which just isn't true--or not true enough to make his point. Long plant-less winters are a thing for some ancestral diets.

Says the people who show up in hospital with carnivory-induced scurvy aren't included in the anecdotes. Here's a place where an anecdote definitely would be data. Vegans sometimes show up with deficiencies. Personally I wouldn't do carnivore without some supplementation, not because I think it's necessary, but because I'm not out to prove that carnivory is self-sufficient, I'm willing to ruin my n=1 on this particular point with a multi-vitamin. The only anecdote I've seen that looked something like scurvy was a zero carber named Danny Roddy, some years back he did a stint on some pemmican--the meat only version. He described it as a little overcooked, or so my memory, that I can't fully trust of course, tells me. He developed some symptoms that sounded scurvy-like to me at the time, dark spots on his legs, etc. Maybe there aren't enough people experimenting with carnivore for a whole lot of anecdotes to be out there. But they should really be very common, at least if you agree with this doctor. When Steffanson was experimented on, they pretty much thought it would be universal. That study only gave two subjects, but that's enough to show that the need for plants to prevent scurvy is at the very least not universal.

He brings up self-selection bias... yes, but...

Here's the thing with data. Bob stopped eating wheat. He stopped suffering. Turns out Bob was celiac. His anecdote is useful to some subset of people suffering what he suffered. When they stop eating wheat, their results are spectacular. Some people may try what Bob tried, and it might work for other reasons--like, the weekly birthday cake at the office, they don't succumb to it anymore, they don't stop for a donut every day before work, etc. Some of the people who think they're benefiting from avoiding gluten might be kidding themselves about their response to the gluten itself, yes. But is it implausible, for somebody who has benefits, that it might be the gluten? Absolutely not--it's just not established. Big difference.
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  #350   ^
Old Wed, Jul-10-19, 07:56
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WereBear WereBear is online now
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The thing is, carnivore and keto are large scale experiments now, with many success stories from various sources.

This became a "fad" from word of mouth. It was not manufactured. So, it was not just a fad.
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  #351   ^
Old Wed, Jul-10-19, 08:09
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teaser teaser is online now
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Plan: mostly milkfat
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That's another thing--the low carb and ketogenic diet data/research that's out there can and should be applied to the carnivore experience. Whether plant-free is well researched or not, minimal plant is something we do have some data on. That steak might be more nutritious with a side of salad--but it's well established that, in certain contexts at least, there's nothing wrong with eating the steak itself.
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  #352   ^
Old Wed, Jul-10-19, 09:23
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GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
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Placebo effect. Yes, if I actually wanted a diet to work and it worked, I would never have gone low carb. I wanted a healthy whole grains diet with healthy protein to work. It didn't, and the damage accumulated. So, why do I have a placebo effect with low carb/ keto? Hmmmmmmm . . .

So, the placebo effect can apply to a vegan diet as well, until it doesn't.
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  #353   ^
Old Wed, Jul-10-19, 10:30
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teaser teaser is online now
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I don't think there's as much strength behind placebo the way he puts it as he thinks. He criticizes carnivore because there's no placebo. Anyone seen a study where the placebo effect is tested against a placebo?

There is not a placebo effect. What there is, when placebo "works" is an uncertainty. Something in the study design, outside of the targeted intervention, is having an effect. This can be reversion to means. It could be some sort of change in behaviour in the subjects. Is it possible to eat less and lose weight? At least temporarily, yes. Is that a placebo effect, or just a change in behaviour? It's not really a placebo effect, it's not that the little chalk pill or whatever actually has an effect. More likely, something other than the fake drug etc. is having an effect. Placebos disclose that some variable hasn't been controlled for that has an effect--they are a test of the control. There may be cases where it's a matter of "mind over matter," since how we think about something is in fact a stimulus for our metabolism to respond to. But calling that the placebo effect is not great science.

If there's a "placebo" effect for carnivore--while it's hard to measure, I'd guess it comes down to a few things. (Or rather, effects that a placebo might show exist, if it couldn't actually pin them down). It might work because it's more ketogenic. Also more easily ketogenic, since it's so simple.

It might work because as the Dr. says, it's "ascetic." I wouldn't call it ascetic--but some versions use no condiments at all, not everybody even salts their meat. It's a highly palatable diet, but it's not a hyperpalatable diet in the sense of high variety, high sugar etc. I sort of like to look at this alternately as giving a fairly simple signal to the sensory apparatus of the appetite, do all those flavours make food more palatable, yes, but they also give the brain etc. more work to do to figure out just what we're eating and how much is enough and how much too much.
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  #354   ^
Old Wed, Jul-10-19, 10:37
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
It might work because as the Dr. says, it's "ascetic." I wouldn't call it ascetic--but some versions use no condiments at all, not everybody even salts their meat. It's a highly palatable diet, but it's not a hyperpalatable diet in the sense of high variety, high sugar etc. I sort of like to look at this alternately as giving a fairly simple signal to the sensory apparatus of the appetite, do all those flavours make food more palatable, yes, but they also give the brain etc. more work to do to figure out just what we're eating and how much is enough and how much too much.


This concept makes a lot of sense to me, since going Keto with meat, high fat dairy, eggs, and minimal plants I have a different set of taste buds.

Simple things now taste as good as more complicated things. Some of that is how I am cooking with fresh ingredients and that will always give a leg up, but I did that when I ate somewhat higher carb levels. So it seems like they have been sharpened, sensitized.

I really don't eat unless hunger becomes distracting, and then I try to seek out what I am craving, which for a GIANT change, is always something good for me It is incredibly tasty then.

I think I'm just constituted to do well on this low carb level. And my weight and my relationship with carbs are bound together: I know what I weigh when I eat 50 carbs a day, and I know what I weigh when I eat 20, and it's a lot of difference, at least now. And this is after successful weight loss and maintenance over years.
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  #355   ^
Old Thu, Aug-29-19, 10:58
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JEY100 JEY100 is offline
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Plan: IF Fung/LC Westman/Primal
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Plant-based functional nutritionist, Mike Mutzel, stuggling to accept the Carnivore Diet and convince his plant-based audience. Interesting interview.

Dr. Paul Saladino is writing a book “The Carnivore Code: Unlocking the secrets to optimal health by returning to our ancestral diet.”

https://highintensityhealth.com/why...ul-saladino-md/
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