Active Low-Carber Forums
Atkins diet and low carb discussion provided free for information only, not as medical advice.
Home Plans Tips Recipes Tools Stories Studies Products
Active Low-Carber Forums
A sugar-free zone


Welcome to the Active Low-Carber Forums.
Support for Atkins diet, Protein Power, Neanderthin (Paleo Diet), CAD/CALP, Dr. Bernstein Diabetes Solution and any other healthy low-carb diet or plan, all are welcome in our lowcarb community. Forget starvation and fad diets -- join the healthy eating crowd! You may register by clicking here, it's free!

Go Back   Active Low-Carber Forums > Main Low-Carb Diets Forums & Support > Low Carb Health & Technical Forums > Dr.Bernstein & Diabetes
User Name
Password
FAQ Members Calendar Mark Forums Read Search Gallery My P.L.A.N. Survey


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1246   ^
Old Wed, Jul-31-19, 11:26
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,036
 
Plan: Very LC, Higher Protein
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
Default

I was particularly interested in the explanation of the mechanism benefits of autophagy. Periodic cleansing is healthy. From previous information, autophagy starts anywhere from 16 to 20 hours after the start of a fast. Small amounts of protein or amino acids quickly shut down authophagy and glucagon levels.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #1247   ^
Old Wed, Jul-31-19, 14:49
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,036
 
Plan: Very LC, Higher Protein
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
Default

Insightful interview by Oksana Boyko of Jason Fung. This is a summary of his clinical findings and why he is able to reverse T2D. Nothing earth shattering, but an excellent presentation to anyone new to low carb, the concept of insulin resistance, or practical applications of IF:
https://www.dietdoctor.com/fasting-...e65b5-465973449
Reply With Quote
  #1248   ^
Old Wed, Jul-31-19, 15:29
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 19,179
 
Plan: atkins, carnivore 2023
Stats: 200/211/163 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: -30%
Location: Massachusetts
Default

Thanks Rob. I have a friend that is now T2D, and medical support is slow to help her change her diet. ie she didnt know cottage cheese had carbs, starts her day with oatmeal...
Reply With Quote
  #1249   ^
Old Thu, Aug-01-19, 07:22
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 14,608
 
Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/125/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 136%
Location: USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms Arielle
Thanks Rob. I have a friend that is now T2D, and medical support is slow to help her change her diet. ie she didnt know cottage cheese had carbs, starts her day with oatmeal...


I once fell into a blog chain of newly diagnosed T2D diabetics, and it was horribly depressing to read how earnestly they struggled with the medical advice they were given. They dutifully ate exact numbers of carbs with each meal and the mandated snacks in between, then tried to "balance" with insulin.

All of them had their blood sugar blow up on them, got labeled "brittle diabetics" and were tormented by cravings and watching larger portions, because their blood sugar levels were all over the place.

One functional medicine book explained it as the trap that is Standard of Care. It mandates a minimum level of carbs to cover the insulin that is prescribed!

High blood sugars cause "inevitable complications" down the road, so nobody can get sued over that. While low blood sugars can kill, and that's something a doctor can be held liable over.
Reply With Quote
  #1250   ^
Old Thu, Aug-01-19, 08:36
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,036
 
Plan: Very LC, Higher Protein
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
Default

More proof that maintaining good health is a huge incentive to most. It would be nice if we all were provided the correct methods to achieve good health.
Reply With Quote
  #1251   ^
Old Thu, Aug-01-19, 09:42
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 14,608
 
Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/125/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 136%
Location: USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GRB5111
More proof that maintaining good health is a huge incentive to most. It would be nice if we all were provided the correct methods to achieve good health.


Indeed it would be!

I find myself approached by long-term acquaintances. They sidle up like someone in a 1970's tv movie. They ask me how I did it in a low voice.

I am happy to share.
Reply With Quote
  #1252   ^
Old Fri, Aug-02-19, 09:43
JEY100's Avatar
JEY100 JEY100 is online now
Posts: 13,371
 
Plan: P:E/DDF
Stats: 225/150/169 Female 5' 9"
BF:45%/28%/25%
Progress: 134%
Location: NC
Default

Wall Street Journal essay: The Fasting Cure Is No Fad
New research is showing the profound benefits—for weight, longevity and fighting disease—of eating only during limited hours

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-fa...SOitd gU_4TdZo (if this doesn't open, full copy under Media/Research forum)

Last edited by JEY100 : Fri, Aug-02-19 at 11:49.
Reply With Quote
  #1253   ^
Old Sat, Aug-03-19, 12:13
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,036
 
Plan: Very LC, Higher Protein
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GRB5111
I was particularly interested in the explanation of the mechanism benefits of autophagy. Periodic cleansing is healthy. From previous information, autophagy starts anywhere from 16 to 20 hours after the start of a fast. Small amounts of protein or amino acids quickly shut down authophagy and glucagon levels.

In the interests of maintaining accuracy of my posts on this forum, I need to temper the above statement stating that "autophagy starts anywhere from 16 to 20 hours after the start of a fast."

Here's a different view from Dom D'Agostino's blog regarding fasting. Autophagy and rate of starting after beginning a fast is addressed in the Take Home Message at the end of this topic:

Quote:
Fasting is a very cut and dry approach to activate autophagy, there’s no questioning which foods to eat and what to abstain from to keep these inhibitory pathways at bay. So, in some ways, fasting is the easiest approach, although I’m sure easy is not what you were thinking since generally speaking, no food = no fun. Multiple studies have demonstrated the neuroprotective effects of calorie restriction and fasting as means of removing toxic molecules and damaged mitochondria from neurons [5], and autophagy is the key player. In one particular study using an animal model, autophagy was upregulated after a 24 hour fast, and results were even more dramatic after 48 hours [6]. With that being said, this was done in a rat model, and fasting hours cannot directly translate to humans, so this information is more informative than practical. They also did not test prior to 24 hours, so it is unknown after what amount of hours autophagy begins activation. The “minimum dose required” would be great to know, because I’m sure we can all agree that reaping the benefits of a 24 hour fast in something closer to 12 hours sounds a lot better than going an entire day, or maybe 3, without eating. As of right now prolong fasts (~3-5 days) are likely what is needed to really enhance autophagy. We believe the research on that forefront will soon be available, due to the current interest in autophagy.

If we are only focused on insulin and mTOR then intermittent fasting is a more realistic strategy. The most common forms of intermittent fasting studied include alternate-day fasting and time restricted feeding, where you alternate between eating normally one day and restrict to ~500 calories or less the next, or eat all of your daily calories in a 6-8 hour window and fast the remaining, respectively. These methods may have some benefit on autophagy by giving our bodies periods of time without food and therefore downregulating our nutrient sensing pathways that, when activated, inhibit autophagy.

Take home message: It is clear that fasting activates autophagy in animal models, it is unclear however how long humans need to fast to activate autophagy. ~3-5 days likely guarantees some autophagy action, but prolong fasting is not for everyone and intermittent fasting may be an alternative.

Link: https://www.ketonutrition.org/blog/...ellular-upgrade

The 16-20 hours was from a Fung statement in the past 6 months. This is clearly different from the blog post quoted above dated August 5, 2018. If anyone knows of a clear statement as to when autophagy starts in humans in the absence of food, I'd be interested. As stated in the D'Agostino blog post, it would be nice to know how long it takes to benefit from optimal autophagy. I would be able to determine the necessary duration of an IF for maximum benefit.
Reply With Quote
  #1254   ^
Old Sun, Aug-04-19, 11:08
CityGirl8 CityGirl8 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 856
 
Plan: Protein Power, IF
Stats: 238/204/145 Female 5'8"
BF:53.75%/46.6%/25%
Progress: 37%
Location: PNW
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GRB5111
The 16-20 hours was from a Fung statement in the past 6 months. This is clearly different from the blog post quoted above dated August 5, 2018. If anyone knows of a clear statement as to when autophagy starts in humans in the absence of food, I'd be interested.
Autophagy is an ongoing process in our bodies all the time. So we're talking about a scale or range, not an on-off switch. Often people say that something "stops" autophagy, but that's not really accurate. The rate of increase isn't a straight line either--it does appear to be an exponential increase the longer you go without eating, going from a normal level to as much as a 300% increase around hour 36 of a fast. So at hour 12 it's maybe a 20% increase (I'm guessing, but you get the idea).

There haven't been any studies in humans directly measuring autophagy, to the best of my knowledge, so we rely on the rat studies and studies that are looking at other things (cancer, weight loss, etc.) and extrapolate that the benefits are from autophagy. It's a wide open field of study right now.

There are studies in humans that have used fasting-mimicking diets to study the effects on weight loss, cancer, PCOS, and other health conditions. The fasting-mimicking protocols are something like under 500 calories/day on "fasting" days and normal intake on other days. Apparently it's been considered too dangerous to have humans fully fast, so they can't get funding and ethics approval for fully-fasted trials.

The studies that Valter Longo has done on the effects of fasting on cancer have been with fasting-mimicking diets. There probably are several factors that contribute to patient improvement. One is the drop in blood sugar. There's been a lot of experience of people going low-carb to fight cancer and having excellent results. But his results have been better and more consistent with the fasting protocol and they attribute that to autophagy and apopsis (which is similar--but getting rid of entire cells rather than just recycling bad bits of cells).

Bottom line: There's not nearly enough science on this yet to truly answer your question, but based on what there is people get some moderate increase in autophagy on time-restricted eating plans like 16:8 or OMAD and it really escalates after that. But exactly how much and where the cap is, isn't known in humans. If you keep going after 36 hours, yes, you're going to get extended benefits of a high rate of autophagy during that time. I've never seen any other claims like D'Agostino's saying that you need to fast for 3–5 days to get increased autophagy.
Reply With Quote
  #1255   ^
Old Sun, Aug-04-19, 11:59
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
Default

It's not really so much a matter of when autophagy kicks in as when it peaks. There's always some going on. Peak autophagy claims are a little problematic, when we get into even micrograms of protein 'shutting down' autophagy--that gets into autophagy in cell cultures, where levels of amino acids etc. can be brought down lower than they normally would ever get to in a living body. Compared to the sort of spike you'll see in that very stressful condition, normal physiological levels of autophagy can look sort of tepid--even if they are actually relevant, over time, to health.
Reply With Quote
  #1256   ^
Old Sun, Aug-04-19, 13:59
GRB5111's Avatar
GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 4,036
 
Plan: Very LC, Higher Protein
Stats: 227/186/185 Male 6' 0"
BF:
Progress: 98%
Location: Herndon, VA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CityGirl8
Autophagy is an ongoing process in our bodies all the time. So we're talking about a scale or range, not an on-off switch. Often people say that something "stops" autophagy, but that's not really accurate. The rate of increase isn't a straight line either--it does appear to be an exponential increase the longer you go without eating, going from a normal level to as much as a 300% increase around hour 36 of a fast. So at hour 12 it's maybe a 20% increase (I'm guessing, but you get the idea).

There haven't been any studies in humans directly measuring autophagy, to the best of my knowledge, so we rely on the rat studies and studies that are looking at other things (cancer, weight loss, etc.) and extrapolate that the benefits are from autophagy. It's a wide open field of study right now.

While I understand the mechanism of autophagy very well, my request was for a reference of human studies that pegged the start time and increase of autophagy in the absence of food. I'm interested, and I've already assumed that it occurs and increases on a continuum over time during the continued absence of food consumption. Starting from a VLCKD WOE, I also assume that I have a shorter duration from starting a fast to when autophagy begins in the absence of food compared to one starting from a SAD WOE. I defer to D'Agostino, an expert in this area, that his statement is true that we lack this knowledge today. This is why I posted the clarification about the 16-20 hours. We have a responsibility to one another that we post accurate information. However, as referenced, autophagy is being studied in more detail today as related to human health benefits. There will be a time when we get this information. It will be very beneficial to many of us.

I can also confirm that autophagy can be stopped very quickly, relatively speaking, as soon as I break a fast with enough protein (especially) and carbs that change the insulin:glucagon ratio back to favor insulin. Autophagy, to any degree of effectiveness, is finished at that time. Having done IFs of 4+ days, I can confirm the benefits and healing from a few of those experiences. I'm simply eager to learn more about the mechanistic details of human autophagy.

I'm not quite taking the Feldman approach where he's asked for confirmed research showing that LDL causes CVD with a now $3,000 reward offer. He hasn't paid the reward at this point. I'm just interested should someone come across a clearer description of when and under what conditions human autophagy increases to provide a health benefit. It's very likely Dr. Ben Bikman is researching all around this, so he's a likely candidate for clarity. No reward is offered at this time.
Reply With Quote
  #1257   ^
Old Wed, Aug-07-19, 16:53
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 19,179
 
Plan: atkins, carnivore 2023
Stats: 200/211/163 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: -30%
Location: Massachusetts
Default What number of hours Dr FUng call IF?

Im stuck.
Trying to understand the beneficial time of IF, as this study shows. What is the time between last and first meal.

Is IF 24 hours, like 23/1 or more like 36 hours between last meal and next meal???

https://idmprogram.com/difference-c...ing-fasting-27/
Reply With Quote
  #1258   ^
Old Thu, Aug-08-19, 02:15
s93uv3h's Avatar
s93uv3h s93uv3h is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,662
 
Plan: Atkins & IF / TRE
Stats: 000/000/000 Male 5' 10"
BF:
Progress: 97%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms Arielle
Im stuck.
Trying to understand the beneficial time of IF, as this study shows. What is the time between last and first meal.

Is IF 24 hours, like 23/1 or more like 36 hours between last meal and next meal???

https://idmprogram.com/difference-c...ing-fasting-27/
I like to mix them up. 16/8, omad, 17/9, 18/6. There's only 24 hours in a day so when you do an omad, it can morph into a 12/12 if you try to get back to normal eating times... if that makes sense. < and to me there's no problem in that one longer eating window as it balances out to get you where you were.

Just do the best you can and always try for the large fast being longer than the eating window. For me a log helps.
Reply With Quote
  #1259   ^
Old Thu, Aug-08-19, 10:42
CityGirl8 CityGirl8 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 856
 
Plan: Protein Power, IF
Stats: 238/204/145 Female 5'8"
BF:53.75%/46.6%/25%
Progress: 37%
Location: PNW
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms Arielle
Is IF 24 hours, like 23/1 or more like 36 hours between last meal and next meal???
One thing I've discovered is that there aren't really uniform definitions of what IF really is. I try to use the same terms that Dr. Fung uses:

Time-restricted eating (TRE)--16:8, 18:6, OMAD, etc. 24 hrs. is the same as OMAD and is really more like 23 hours.

Intermittent fasting (IF)--anything that involves going at least one full day without eating, up to about 3 days. This would be a minimum of 36 hours; start counting at the end of dinner, fast all day the next day, and go until breakfast on the next day.

Extended fasting (EF)--fasts of more than three days.

But lots and lots of people say "IF" when they're talking about TRE, so it gets confusing. I've even seen quite a number of people insist they're doing "EF," when they do anything over 24 hours.

Definitions aside, every approach has it's own benefits. IDM encourages their patients who are trying to lose weight to do at least three 36-to-42-hour fasts per week, aka alternate day fasting (ADF). Dr. Fung thinks that TRE is a good option for maintenance. But some people certainly have had weight loss results that they like doing TRE.

IDM patients are typically also trying to treat diabetes and that may require more than just TRE to begin to reverse. Also, autophagy doesn't really start to ramp up until 36 hours or so (as you can see from the discussion above, the science hasn't really advanced enough for us to really know when and how much). So, people that are fasting to treat cancer, PCOS, etc, probably want to stick to IF rather than TRE.
Reply With Quote
  #1260   ^
Old Thu, Aug-08-19, 12:28
Ms Arielle's Avatar
Ms Arielle Ms Arielle is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 19,179
 
Plan: atkins, carnivore 2023
Stats: 200/211/163 Female 5'8"
BF:
Progress: -30%
Location: Massachusetts
Default

Great answers, that is my understanding too. WHich is why Im trying to understand this blog posting by Dr Fung.

Would Dr FUng use IF to mean 36 hours of fasting?? He uses IF in the article, but understanding the time in the study is confusing me. ? He means greater than 36 hours in this blog??

He presents 24 hour data, so hour count is important here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ms Arielle

Is IF 24 hours, like 23/1 or more like 36 hours between last meal and next meal???

https://idmprogram.com/difference-c...ing-fasting-27/

Last edited by Ms Arielle : Thu, Aug-08-19 at 12:33.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:25.


Copyright © 2000-2024 Active Low-Carber Forums @ forum.lowcarber.org
Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.