I was watching the video presentation: Red Meat and Health, which is great. Then she closed by recommending a book on oxalates.

https://youtu.be/L9ZLJI-1ifs

I had vaguely heard of the subject in relation to autoimmune but reading about it yielded so much confusion I gave up. But so far, the book is fascinating.

Warning. Anyone with food sensitivities will be familiar with the farewell scene from their favorite movie. But I remind myself nothing tastes as good as health feels.

In short it's a plant problem, not an exact science, but I'll eat all meat, seafood, and dairy to have my morning cocoa because some foods are that high. I mostly do that anyway so one would think it should not concern me. But some surprising foods have high levels.

(Willie Nelson was right. Spinach will kill you.)

As impressive as her research and case histories are, the author tells her own compelling story with chronic pain, mood problems, and a foot injury that never seemed to completely heal.

She explains the subject IS confusing, and under-researched. But apparently the plant-based craze has brought some light on the danger recently, as green smoothies put people in hospitals.

DH's issues are an even better fit than mine. We're willing to experiment. I'm better but still have some issues this might help.

I've reached the halfway point of the book. The science behind is extends back for a couple of hundred years and she's got case study after case study that is written up, but somehow, like actual endocrine treatment, it keeps not being part of the modern approach to medicine.

Here's a research article that is a good summary, and it includes a oxalate calculator to see what that load might be.

Oxalates FAQ

Right on the mark as usual, WB. I have been studying the effects of oxalates and health over the past year, and spinach, among many other foods considered "healthy" is now off my plate and out of my house. Yes, it impacts each one of us differently, but it's inextricably linked with inflammation, and that is one symptom I'm working hard to avoid. My recent hsCRP tests indicate good success, and knowing which foods to avoid is especially helpful.

Thanks, G! I gotta listen to Nina.

I’ve now finished the book and started my shift to lower oxalate foods. A slow and steady decrease is recommended and carefully outlined, based on different eating plans.

A few caveats:

The author refers to oxalate management “relieving autism symptoms” but I think it’s simply that everyone copes better when they feel better.

There is even some confusion of oxalate levels of the same foods in this same book. But this only underlines the lack of hard metrics and groping in the dark that faced the author, which she does explain very clearly. Everyone has different tolerances, food habits, and genetics which means a wide range of symptoms in different organ systems.

But high, medium, and low category foods are easy to keep track of, and start with the highest food and see what can be subbed. I have cut down on the amount of cocoa I put in my hot chocolate and exploring hot-not-chocolate, like a promising vanilla/orange Creamsicle drink.

The book also offers interesting views on calcium — far more nuanced that the usual — that makes me feel better about supplements. Tips like taking my D3/K2 two hours after a meal with calcium, so they don’t conflict.

Also, a caution about collagen overuse. Yes, even bone broth. She says it’s an oxalate precursor and too much can cause problems. It’s another classic case of too much is too much. She recommends a tablespoon every other day approach. So I’ll try that. I’ve certainly been overdoing it, under the mis-apprehension it was good for me. I’ve probably got a stockpile now.

I think it’s similar to the many instances she describes of how people who put a ton of spinach in their smoothie wind up in the hospital. (Seriously.)

But it turns out I’m no better at it, rolling around in dark chocolate, nuts, and tea. Because it's real food and I thought it was good for me. Like this lady.

https://stopthethyroidmadness.com/oxalates/

There’s a section of the book which contains wild detox stories. I had to believe them, because now I think I had one of my own.

It was January of 2019, and my worst flare yet was driving me to 3 days of fasting and three weeks of beef, water, and salt. This is as close to zero oxalates as a person can get. And it worked wonders.

Now, I have a better idea of why I had the strange reactions I did, from the swift and sudden healing of my swollen joint to the long but dramatic transformation of my psoriasis.

Last night I went onto psoriasis boards and found people who loved the low oxalate approach, and described results much like the ones I had.

Maybe oxalates is the unknown mechanism behind the success stories of carnivore and autoimmune. Now I can see how some might prefer to stick to such, if they are that sensitive.

When I went through meat and seafood and started on plants, my explorations would hit a food, like a cashew, and I’d discover a reason, like lectins. Avoiding or dissolving lectins was the goal, to get all Winston Price on it But they are high lectin, and I’m best off avoiding them. They are already roasted. They aren’t getting any better.

The oxalate toxin explains my erratic reactions with salads, seeds, and nuts. Heaven smiled upon me: macadamias and pistashios are low lectin and low oxalate. We’ll see about salad now. Was it the fiber or the seeds?

I do love casesar salad with sardines. Extra calcium and low oxalate. I can even add the egg in the dressing. Oh, this is a bit exciting, but feels like a spring thing.

Which is something else I’d like to give a heads up about. Seasonal eating. I first ran across this in Dr. Jack Kruse’s Epi-Paleo book, and lately on the Dr. Sarah Myhill website for DH’s CFS/ME. It’s in Toxic Superfoods, too.

Eat lower carb in winter, higher in summer. Produce in season also spreads the oxalate load, with winter a kind of “carnivore” period that would normally help the person dump oxalate yearly.

Another natural function our industrialized eating interferes with. (It might even figure into fasting as another oxalate toxin dumping mechanism we interfere with by any six meals a day approach.)

But that is my favorite part, if such can be said. Let’s call it a sad end to the vegan threat. I’m already seeing hot new food articles downplaying greens and praising DAIRY. We won’t get whiplash because it will still go too slowly, but honestly, if half of this book is true, the artificial meat/plant-based nonsense is going to be seriously downplayed, moving forward.

So I’ll urge you to ask the library in your town to order it. I have my own copy and I’m still sending an email to my library. So everyone can find help this way. And find their own best boundaries.

Calcium does buffer oxalates and has a protective effect. But then we need more calcium. (Article link has this backward.)

When in doubt I'm trying the book first. Which is why anyone should work this by the book if they do have a serious health issue. Author knows more about it than doctors 😁

By golly! It has only been a week and I'm seeing improvement. I did great on carnivore but moving to the Wahls Protocol was like a carb ladder. And, like with Atkins, I got sick and had to back off.

But I learned some things both times, and that was good. I discovered lectins. Gave up on vegetables but did well with botanical fruits. I thought.

Turns out I was picking high oxalate salad greens, and even when I dropped all veg not pickled/fermented, I was still stuck. I had unknowingly kept just enough high oxalate fruit, like raspberries and tomatoes, to keep my progress slow and erratic.

After a week I am feeling stuff happen, as warned in the book, and gradually feeling better and better. Though this morning was a slow start, I actually felt a boost in the afternoon.

Carnivore is very low oxalate. I don't regret dropping the sweeteners and artificial flavors (stevia disrupts hormones!) for my smoothies. Chocolate and nuts were casualties in the sense I'm watching portions again! But herbal teas are OK and they put a nice dimension to my smoothies. That makes up for the shrinking cocoa content.

I'm supposed to eat more calcium to buffer the oxalates my body needs to get rid of. Or I might run into a deficiency.

I was ready to go back to Carnivore all over again when I found this book. It explained the baffling ways a food seemed fine until something was wrong, and I had to throw out a whole category to be sure.

Not that I was dreading it, but it is expensive. If I could have salads and some higher sugar fruit back, the variety would be enjoyable. As a healing strategy I am supposed to adjust my carbs up a bit to give my organs a break with their detoxing.

And spring is coming. I missed my Caesar salad with sardines, and that's 20% of the RDA for calcium right there. When I sink, I don't want to eat. To be enthused about food again is a treat in itself.

It's gotten me looking at my nutrition again and that's where all the healing lies. From her book, it's clear to me my autoimmune works with Carnivore (Primal with dairy the way I do it, animal foods) because a lot of my issue is about oxalates, I'm convinced. That's as close to a zero oxalate as we can come.

We get more nutrition, and low oxalate storage with high breakdown keeps us healthy. Yet those who have trouble with it, now they know what plants to add in without worsening the issues they are trying to treat.

I do have a safety note: stepping down oxalate intake triggers a set of Herxheimer reactions. Gradually reducing intake is less stressful for us and the body.

I think this book will be very useful for getting my health bouncing back after the last couple of years

Sounds like progress. Calcium can easily be supplemented with kefir. It's easy to make, and you have your first batch in 24 hours once your grains have recovered from shipping. It's far more robust in probiotics than any store-bought kefir or yogurt products. The dairy contribution from kefir contains the needed calcium, vitamin D, B vitamins, and very little lactose, as the grains (bacteria and healthy yeast) consume just about all of it during the 24-hour fermentation period. In addition, one doesn't need to get expensive milk, just the most inexpensive whole milk available. You get some additional protein in the bargain as well.

Thank you Rob. I'm enjoying sardines with the bones in. Which my little Tortie cat also loves.

One can, 20% of RDA.

Mr WereBear wants to make kefir, but at this point neither of us could keep a sourdough starter alive, but we look forward to stuff like that 😁

The Carnivore FB pages are filled with discussions of oxylates. All I know is I feel so much better on Carnivore than when I was eating veggies. No more bouts of diverticulitis, no constipation. I eat from the animal kingdom (including SOME dairy, but not much). Occasionally I'll have trip over the dark side and eat something with carbs, but not very often.

Once you commit to carnivore, it really isn't all that hard. The other day I was craving a cookie or chips or something and almost caved. Then I decided to make a hot "pudding" with a couple oz of Philly, a Tbsp of heavy cream, a bit of sweetener and an egg. It's my version of the infamous Mock Danish. I also add some real whipped cream on top. Afterward, I'm satisfied and feel good that I avoided the sugary temptations.

Would like to know more on this as I picked up on this a year ago.

Because the year before i had been enjoying raw red sorrel in fresh raw salads. And eventually started seeing bubbles when urinating. Immediately I suspected a kidney problem and after ruminating for a probable cause, settled on the sorrel. Quit that and in time bubbles stopped. A very unnerving scenario.

Yet as a child ate lots of sorrel soup.

Why the difference.......

The little I could find was the foods with oxalates need a dairy to offset them at the time of consumption.

( To stretch this solution, it made me realize many foods we eat need treatment before eating. Two examples: Corn should be nixalized; dried beans soaked in water , dump water, and cook well. )

They are now! I didn't keep up with much during the Pandemic or I might have picked up this latest wrinkle.

I love Carnivore, started on it in January 2019. It’s been the key to managing my autoimmune since. But I ran into problems and I couldn’t figure them out until I realizd oxalate dumping answered all my questions.

My revised carnivore plan allows for limited cocoa & certain fruits. I can use them for keeping my dumping process slow and controlled.

Honest! I gotta!

Thing is our ancestors were not faced with smoothies involving a whole bag of spinach. Or in my case a early lifetime, filled with French fried potatoes and dipped in ketchup.

Ms Norton's theory is that in ancient times we went through the winter on meat and seafood and very little vegetable matter. This kept us dumping oxalate for a whole season. It helped our bodies keep oxalates in check.

The factor that trips up so many people, be it carnivore, IF, or simply low carb if we start eating low oxalate.

We start dumping the toxin, but it can't get out of hand. Or we'll do more damage to ourselves.