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  #121   ^
Old Thu, Mar-23-17, 08:12
sandy867's Avatar
sandy867 sandy867 is offline
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Plan: RNY (small portions)
Stats: 306/225/120 Female 63"
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Niacin is antifungal? Good to know. Another thing to have on hand in the non-prescription drug category for treating fungal flare ups like athletes foot and candida.
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  #122   ^
Old Fri, Mar-24-17, 13:10
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/125/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 136%
Location: USA
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Today, I have three days off from work; will be back on my 3g niacin dose again.

What I changed was moving from 2 to 1 meal a day; and that was when I got pounding heart at night, then got thrown a big bunch of stressors. So I'm back to two meals a day; basically rewinding to a plan that seemed to be working for me.

When I was very sick, I had trouble getting into ketosis. I couldn't drop below a certain level of carbs without running into issues. Those issues may be brought out during stress.
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  #123   ^
Old Fri, Mar-24-17, 14:24
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBear

I am skipping my non-meal dose for a bit, I'm back to 2 meals and an eating window, and I don't know if anything I changed is the problem. But I will be on alert to see if my issues that the niacin fixed come back: so far, it's easy to stick to my eating window, like before.



Niacin effectively shuts down lipolysis in fat cells. If you were taking it away from meals, that pretty much leaves the rest of the cells in the body living off of internal reserves or liver glycogen, and of course liver glycogen isn't always so easy to come by for somebody on a low carb diet. Add to this a lack of free fatty acids for the liver to produce ketones from and energy for the process of gluconeogenesis. Taken during a low carb meal, dietary fat replaces lipolysis from fat cells. On the old HeartScan blog, I remember Dr. Davis used to say to take niacin with dietary fat, for it to be effective--this makes sense, with lipolysis decreased, dietary triglycerides should be more efficiently removed from circulation.
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  #124   ^
Old Sat, Mar-25-17, 07:10
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Posts: 14,606
 
Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/125/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 136%
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
Niacin effectively shuts down lipolysis in fat cells.


That makes a lot of sense, then. I was okay skipping breakfast and taking it, but I can see how skipping another meal could be the tipping point. Thanks!

Maybe I can try eating breakfast again. I just dread that constant round of hungry/eat/hungry/eat all the time. I LOVE not eating for hours and hours. Yet, need to take niacin; that's clear to me.

Maybe just distribute the doses to when I do eat...

Last edited by WereBear : Sat, Mar-25-17 at 07:26.
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  #125   ^
Old Tue, Mar-28-17, 10:50
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
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Location: Ontario
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25320342

Quote:
Prolonged niacin treatment leads to increased adipose tissue PUFA synthesis and anti-inflammatory lipid and oxylipin plasma profile.

Heemskerk MM1, Dharuri HK1, van den Berg SA1, Jónasdóttir HS2, Kloos DP2, Giera M2, van Dijk KW3, van Harmelen V1.
Author information
Abstract
Prolonged niacin treatment elicits beneficial effects on the plasma lipid and lipoprotein profile that is associated with a protective CVD risk profile. Acute niacin treatment inhibits nonesterified fatty acid release from adipocytes and stimulates prostaglandin release from skin Langerhans cells, but the acute effects diminish upon prolonged treatment, while the beneficial effects remain. To gain insight in the prolonged effects of niacin on lipid metabolism in adipocytes, we used a mouse model with a human-like lipoprotein metabolism and drug response [female APOE*3-Leiden.CETP (apoE3 Leiden cholesteryl ester transfer protein) mice] treated with and without niacin for 15 weeks. The gene expression profile of gonadal white adipose tissue (gWAT) from niacin-treated mice showed an upregulation of the "biosynthesis of unsaturated fatty acids" pathway, which was corroborated by quantitative PCR and analysis of the FA ratios in gWAT. Also, adipocytes from niacin-treated mice secreted more of the PUFA DHA ex vivo. This resulted in an increased DHA/arachidonic acid (AA) ratio in the adipocyte FA secretion profile and in plasma of niacin-treated mice. Interestingly, the DHA metabolite 19,20-dihydroxy docosapentaenoic acid (19,20-diHDPA) was increased in plasma of niacin-treated mice. Both an increased DHA/AA ratio and increased 19,20-diHDPA are indicative for an anti-inflammatory profile and may indirectly contribute to the atheroprotective lipid and lipoprotein profile associated with prolonged niacin treatment.


Just came across this, haven't read it myself yet, but it looks interesting.
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  #126   ^
Old Tue, Mar-28-17, 14:05
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
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Quote:
acute effects diminish upon prolonged treatment, while the beneficial effects remain


This is also pertinent to my interests
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  #127   ^
Old Wed, Mar-29-17, 12:25
walnut's Avatar
walnut walnut is offline
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Plan: C:12 P:60 F:satiety
Stats: 220/177.6/142 Female 5'5
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Location: canada, eh!
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Quote:
increased adipose tissue PUFA synthesis


Quote:
Niacin effectively shuts down lipolysis in fat cells.



can somebody please use one syllable words to explain if this is good or bad for people trying to lose weight while eating lowcarb and taking niacin.
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  #128   ^
Old Wed, Mar-29-17, 13:00
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/125/150 Female 67
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To quote the excellent explainer behind Tuit Nutrition:

Quote:
The breaking down of triglycerides so that they can be released from adipose cells is not the same thing as burning (oxidizing) fatty acids. Think of it this way: Lipolysis is like cutting a gigantic fallen tree into less-gigantic logs that you can transport to your backyard to chop up for firewood. The process called beta-oxidation is like taking those still-somewhat-large logs, chopping them into small logs, and stacking them by the fireplace. Burning fat is when you take one of those small logs, put it in the fireplace, and set fire to it. So you can see that lipolysis is great, but it’s only the beginning of the fat burning process.

http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2015/1...g-weight-2.html


As teaser explained:

Quote:
Taken during a low carb meal, dietary fat replaces lipolysis from fat cells. On the old HeartScan blog, I remember Dr. Davis used to say to take niacin with dietary fat, for it to be effective--this makes sense, with lipolysis decreased, dietary triglycerides should be more efficiently removed from circulation.


One of the reasons people take niacin is for better blood cholesterol profiles. Niacin seems to lower triglycerides. So it all fits together.

In addition, I had a great meal last night: ham, mixed veggies, all covered with a high fat, homemade, white cheddar sauce. And I thought I would only be able to eat half, but I wound up eating the whole thing. (One of the problems with my illness was lack of appetite.) And I felt really really good!

I think a high fat meal might solve my niacin issues. When I take it in the morning, I have a cup of tea with a walnut sized chunk of coconut oil; that might be why I do okay with it as my breakfast, with niacin. And why taking it while fasting was such a bad idea.

I seem to have gotten my feet under me again, and back to 3g a day, doing well so far.
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  #129   ^
Old Wed, Mar-29-17, 13:12
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
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Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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Quote:
increased adipose tissue PUFA synthesis


In this case it was increased synthesis of dha from linolenic acid, so likely good, increasing the ratio of dha to arachidonic acid is anti-inflammatory, and possibly anti-obesity. Of course this is in mice, and some of the enzymes used to produce dha, epa and arachidonic acid are the same, so if niacin increases essential fatty acid synthesis from the "parent" oils linoleic and linolenic acid, the result might depend on diet and relative levels of these precursor fats in somebody's fat tissue.
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  #130   ^
Old Thu, Mar-30-17, 11:40
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/125/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 136%
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teaser, I am very grateful to you, your scientific insights have been helping me craft my new approach, which is taking my niacin dose with lunch and dinner, both big low carb meals with plenty of protein and fat. I take one in the morning with tea and a thumb-sized blob of coconut oil as breakfast, so breaking my daily niacin allotment into threes.

So far this is working very well for me, I seem to have hit some kind of sweet spot. I think just kinda-skipping breakfast (which I am never hungry for, anyway) is going to be my version of Intermittent Fasting moving forward; any time I ramp it up beyond that, like I had been doing, gets me in trouble.

One breakthrough I did have was getting on the Jack Kruse Optimized Life program almost three years ago; and I have been doing it more or less ever since. The one thing I dropped was the Big A$$ Breakfast; 50-60 grams of protein and fat first thing in the morning. The only way I could do that was a whey protein smoothie; which worked well, but would lead to appetite stresses. So now I had to do eggs and breakfast meat, which is more complex.

It did give me extra energy, but the stress of trying to fit in cooking a big breakfast on top of everything else in the morning was undercutting that. When I left the stove burner on when I left for work, I dropped it; kept feeling pretty good, and switched to tea and coconut oil.

But I am just not a snacker; I wound up constantly hungry if I try -- remember "six small meals a day" which would always wind up being so much trouble to implement? I need to be a camel, not a hamster.

Last edited by WereBear : Thu, Mar-30-17 at 12:14.
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  #131   ^
Old Fri, Mar-31-17, 18:15
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/125/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 136%
Location: USA
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Okay: one BIG meal and one smaller one.

I seem to do okay alternating a big hearty one like today's lunch, a ham & broccoli bowl with white cheddar sauce, and today's dinner, a salad with hot cappacola and fresh mozzarella with a generous amount of hemp oil & red wine vinegar dressing. Both with lots of fat.

Sounds like that be a key thing, at least for me.
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  #132   ^
Old Fri, Mar-31-17, 18:35
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Posts: 14,606
 
Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/125/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 136%
Location: USA
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I was reading an account of someone suffering from severe depression, and it struck me that it is characterized by an inability to initiate actions. Almost like a Parkinson's sufferer, who have trouble beginning a motion on their own.

Though in one case, it seems mental, and in the other it is physical, I wonder if they don't have the same root cause somehow. So I went and looked:

Quote:
In a (2013) study, researchers report that people diagnosed with depression were three times more likely to develop Parkinson’s disease (PD) than those without psychiatric illness. However, it remains unclear whether depression is an independent risk factor for Parkinson’s or an early symptom of the disease. The results appear in the October 2 online edition of Neurology.

Study Links Depression to Increased Parkinson’s Risk


All righty then.

So, to develop the thought that just got some support, niacin has an a definite beneficial effect on my mood. While my issue was anxiety, not depression, there are many accounts of how niacin helps depression, too. But it also certainly helped my brain problem that was my own, seemingly physical, inability to initiate.

I had all these little errands that just seemed overwhelming. So they didn't get done. Yet, over the past few days I have cooked a casserole and cleaned up after, packaged a defective item to be sent back to the store, and ran three complicated errands in a row to prepare for a snowstorm.

Everyone else's normal, perhaps. But I could not do it when I was so exhausted. Was it mental or was it physical? Or does it matter?

I keep coming to back to niacin's true status as an amino acid. I had long felt that my brain problem was simply running out of neurotransmitters, and I tried 5HTP, GABA, and even pregnenolone in an effort to supply what was missing; at least long enough to tell if it helped.

With the exception of the pregnenolone, which helped my sleep, nothing worked. But now, the niacin, does. It is allowing me to close the switch and get an action started.

It all seems connected somehow.
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  #133   ^
Old Fri, Mar-31-17, 22:08
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is offline
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Plan: Atkins DANDR
Stats: 210/194/160 Female 5'4"
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That's great Wearbear! The niacin must be supplying that missing amino acid that your body really needed. It's so ironic that much of what you describe sounds exactly like what my DD3 is experiencing. She doesn't have depression either but the anxiety just the same some way with too many things piling up.
Did you also have a D deficiency? Just wondering...That's the only thing that she's identified after the past 3 doctors. Even after taking D for months she's still Really Low.
Thanks for posting about your journey.
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  #134   ^
Old Sat, Apr-01-17, 06:24
WereBear's Avatar
WereBear WereBear is offline
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Posts: 14,606
 
Plan: EpiPaleo/Primal/LowOx
Stats: 220/125/150 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 136%
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meme#1
Did you also have a D deficiency? Just wondering...That's the only thing that she's identified after the past 3 doctors. Even after taking D for months she's still Really Low.


I've been taking D for years now. It should help her feel lots better; it took 2 months for it to kick in so I could feel it. How much is she taking? I was taking 10k a day.
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  #135   ^
Old Sat, Apr-01-17, 11:04
Meme#1's Avatar
Meme#1 Meme#1 is offline
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Plan: Atkins DANDR
Stats: 210/194/160 Female 5'4"
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You were taking 10,000, I think I read that it takes quite a bit like that amount to reverse a deficiency. I'm not sure how much she takes but
I'll find out, maybe that's one problem, not taking enough.
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