Active Low-Carber Forums
Atkins diet and low carb discussion provided free for information only, not as medical advice.
Home Plans Tips Recipes Tools Stories Studies Products
Active Low-Carber Forums
A sugar-free zone


Welcome to the Active Low-Carber Forums.
Support for Atkins diet, Protein Power, Neanderthin (Paleo Diet), CAD/CALP, Dr. Bernstein Diabetes Solution and any other healthy low-carb diet or plan, all are welcome in our lowcarb community. Forget starvation and fad diets -- join the healthy eating crowd! You may register by clicking here, it's free!

Go Back   Active Low-Carber Forums > Main Low-Carb Diets Forums & Support > Exercise Forums: Active Low-Carbers > Advanced/High Intensity
User Name
Password
FAQ Members Calendar Mark Forums Read Search Gallery My P.L.A.N. Survey


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   ^
Old Tue, Aug-14-07, 15:06
KesslerC KesslerC is offline
New Member
Posts: 4
 
Plan: CKD
Stats: 240/236/205 Male 6'4"
BF:
Progress: 11%
Default Keeping my Muscle! (Ketosis, HIIT, Carb Loading etc)

My dilemma is that I want to preserve as much muscle as possible and make sure I'm not doing something that is unintentionally eating up my lean mass. I'm going to be in ketosis 6 days a week, with a carb up on Saturday or Sunday.

I've been doing HIIT and I really love it, but I'm concerned that if I'm doing any kind of high intensity cardio while I'm in ketosis that I'm eating into my lean mass. Is that correct? Would carb loading before a workout help? Or should I just be taking it a lot easier. I tend to gravitate towards very high intensity workouts whether it's lifting or cardio and I really enjoy it.

If I eat protein before a high intensity workout, will that prevent muscle loss? From my understanding anaerobic exercise only uses glycogen for fuel, so if I'm doing HIIT and heavy weight training, if my glycogen stores are depleted from being in ketosis my body starts to break down muscle to get the glycogen needed. correct?

So would having a protein shake before help? Or do I need to carb load... or is there something else I'm missing.

Help and advice is greatly appreciated!

Last edited by KesslerC : Tue, Aug-14-07 at 15:23.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2   ^
Old Tue, Aug-14-07, 17:53
CVH's Avatar
CVH CVH is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 299
 
Plan: Carnivore
Stats: 000/200/000 Male 6'2"
BF:
Progress:
Location: FL, USA
Default

I was told that the worst you can for muscle mass is:

-Workout intensely on an empty stomach, especially 1st thing in the morning.

-Working out intensely on an empty stomach, especially for more than an hour.

-Working out without a pre-workout meal, especially without carbs.

-Working out for more than an hour without consuming a protein/carb combo during my workout.

My body disagrees, I consume zero grams of carbs, workout 1st thing in the morning, running 5+miles, calisthenics and some weighted exercies, swimming, major lifts(deads, presses, etc...), Martial arts and stretching all in one workout, sometime go swimming again at night.

Guess what, I didn't lose muscle or even keep my preformance the same, but increased both, only time I had a noticable loss is when I quit a purely powerlifting program and switched to the current program, but I'm very close to where I was because the intensity is ever increasing.

Don't buy that whole "your body is like a fragile little butterfly, if you don't precisecly what common "wisdom" says, you will turn into a frail stick....."

Tell me you slept with princess Diana and I'll believe that more than the crap every "pro" at the gym spews.

I was doing what you're doing, low carb off days and high carb on days, switching to a 100% zero carb diet will really let your body get accusomted to having tons of energy, more than you will ever have when consuming carbs.

"Common wisdom" says, any protein consumed before working out will turn into glucose via glucogenesis, not applicable in my case either way because I don't eat about 10 hours before working out.

Finally, your body will not canabalize your own muscle mass for just 3-4 hours or more of exercise, it takes alot more.
Reply With Quote
  #3   ^
Old Tue, Aug-14-07, 18:56
JL53563's Avatar
JL53563 JL53563 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,209
 
Plan: The Real Human Diet
Stats: 225/165/180 Male 5'8"
BF:?/?/8.6%
Progress: 133%
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CVH
I was told that the worst you can for muscle mass is:

-Workout intensely on an empty stomach, especially 1st thing in the morning.

-Working out intensely on an empty stomach, especially for more than an hour.

-Working out without a pre-workout meal, especially without carbs.

-Working out for more than an hour without consuming a protein/carb combo during my workout.

My body disagrees, I consume zero grams of carbs, workout 1st thing in the morning, running 5+miles, calisthenics and some weighted exercies, swimming, major lifts(deads, presses, etc...), Martial arts and stretching all in one workout, sometime go swimming again at night.

Guess what, I didn't lose muscle or even keep my preformance the same, but increased both, only time I had a noticable loss is when I quit a purely powerlifting program and switched to the current program, but I'm very close to where I was because the intensity is ever increasing.

Don't buy that whole "your body is like a fragile little butterfly, if you don't precisecly what common "wisdom" says, you will turn into a frail stick....."

Tell me you slept with princess Diana and I'll believe that more than the crap every "pro" at the gym spews.

I was doing what you're doing, low carb off days and high carb on days, switching to a 100% zero carb diet will really let your body get accusomted to having tons of energy, more than you will ever have when consuming carbs.

"Common wisdom" says, any protein consumed before working out will turn into glucose via glucogenesis, not applicable in my case either way because I don't eat about 10 hours before working out.

Finally, your body will not canabalize your own muscle mass for just 3-4 hours or more of exercise, it takes alot more.

Agreed. I've had great success doing intense exercise while on zero carb.
Reply With Quote
  #4   ^
Old Tue, Aug-14-07, 23:45
Ghoulia's Avatar
Ghoulia Ghoulia is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,214
 
Plan: Moderate Low-Carb <100g
Stats: 130/110.2/115 Female 5'3.5
BF:00/00/00
Progress: 132%
Location: Cal-i-forn-ia
Default

Me three.

Julia
Reply With Quote
  #5   ^
Old Wed, Aug-15-07, 04:28
dane's Avatar
dane dane is offline
muscle bound
Posts: 3,535
 
Plan: Lyle's PSMF
Stats: 226/150/135 Female 5'7.5"
BF:46/20/sliced
Progress: 84%
Location: near Budapest, Hungary
Default

Some people seem to do just fine on low carbs (zero carbs is VERY difficult to maintain--means no eggs, no cheese, no veggies) and maintaining LBM and exercise intensity, but that usually applies to endurance sports. If you are focusing on weight training and HIIT sprint stuff, you're more than likely going to need some carbs.

The best thing you can do to preserve your lean tissue is to give your body a reason to keep it, and that's a heavy stimulus (weight training). Sacrificing intensity by not eating carbs if you need them is not wise, IMO. It should also go without saying that you're getting enough protein every day, at least a gP per pound of LBM.

CKD is a good program, if you can handle the weekend carbloads. That should provide you with enough glycogen to make it through your week. As for eating before HIIT, feed yourself as you would for a lifting session--eat a good protein meal sometime in the few hours preceding. I personally would never work out empty, mostly because it makes me feel like crap and my intensity suffers. YMMV--there's new IF research coming out that shows it may not make a difference for retaining mass after all.
Reply With Quote
  #6   ^
Old Fri, Aug-17-07, 12:25
Muata's Avatar
Muata Muata is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 277
 
Plan: Ketogenic/Paleolithic
Stats: 310/179/175 Male 71
BF:44%/6%/5%
Progress: 97%
Location: Irvine, CA
Default

KesslerC,

I thought you might find this interesting:

http://livinlavidalocarb.blogspot.c...e-when-you.html
Reply With Quote
  #7   ^
Old Sat, Aug-18-07, 14:22
Cyclegirl's Avatar
Cyclegirl Cyclegirl is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 32
 
Plan: Modified Greysheet
Stats: 243/160/139 Female 64
BF:
Progress: 80%
Location: Florida
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muata
KesslerC,

I thought you might find this interesting:

http://livinlavidalocarb.blogspot.c...e-when-you.html

Kessler,
Thank you so much for posting this. I am a Spinning instructor and have recently been experiencing the BONK post teaching. I would get to the end of my class and by the time I was instructing the stretches I was getting foggy headed, not dizzy but couldn't remember what the next stretch was.

I plan to order the E book and read more but in the meantime that article was directed towards someone doing a spinn class and gave the post workout shake recipe.
Reply With Quote
  #8   ^
Old Wed, Aug-22-07, 18:32
KesslerC KesslerC is offline
New Member
Posts: 4
 
Plan: CKD
Stats: 240/236/205 Male 6'4"
BF:
Progress: 11%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclegirl
Kessler,
Thank you so much for posting this. I am a Spinning instructor and have recently been experiencing the BONK post teaching. I would get to the end of my class and by the time I was instructing the stretches I was getting foggy headed, not dizzy but couldn't remember what the next stretch was.

I plan to order the E book and read more but in the meantime that article was directed towards someone doing a spinn class and gave the post workout shake recipe.


I didn't post it, but np I decided that I'm going to do a small carb load before workouts. A shake with 40g of dextrose and another one with 15g within an hour of finishing.
Reply With Quote
  #9   ^
Old Wed, Aug-22-07, 20:23
Muata's Avatar
Muata Muata is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 277
 
Plan: Ketogenic/Paleolithic
Stats: 310/179/175 Male 71
BF:44%/6%/5%
Progress: 97%
Location: Irvine, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KesslerC
I didn't post it, but np I decided that I'm going to do a small carb load before workouts. A shake with 40g of dextrose and another one with 15g within an hour of finishing.


Actually, I was the one who posted the interview. Nevertheless, Kessler, I've been following Anthony's advice and taking BCAAs before my workout and after. Also, I've been taking a whey shake and glucose afterwards. I've found, and I know this is anecdotal evidence, that my muscles aren't as fatigued and I feel a bit of a pump. Try it both ways, pre-carbs vs post carbs, for a couple of weeks each, and please report back to us how you feel. While I love controlled clinical studies, I'm not one that dismisses anecdotal evidence, and I'm really interested in your experiment. Thanks . . .
Reply With Quote
  #10   ^
Old Fri, Sep-07-07, 17:47
KesslerC KesslerC is offline
New Member
Posts: 4
 
Plan: CKD
Stats: 240/236/205 Male 6'4"
BF:
Progress: 11%
Default

I need advice badly.

I'm following this 8 week program and it's going amazingly. I'm just ending week 3.

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1140463

Now, I'm doing HIIT sprinting intervals every second day. The intensity continually increases. (ie. 45 second sprint, 75 second walk, repeat for 18 minutes total)

So, I'm doing this whole thing while doing a CKD. Carbing up on Saturday or Sunday. I can do the weightlifting days no problem but I'm having MAJOR problems with HIIT when the sprints are over 35 seconds.

I don't have any problems pushing my limits. I used to run cross country competitively and I've thrown up from exertion before. It's not the mental part, my body just starts giving out.

I'm thinking it's because I'm in ketosis and sprints are anaerobic exercises. From what I understand anaerobic exercise requires glucose, period. My theory is that past a certain threshold, I use up the small amount of glucose that's in my muscles and because I'm in ketosis I can't resupply it quickly enough in large enough quantities for a sprint that long.

I'm getting very discouraged because I'm not doing the full 45 or 50 second sprints. It's really demotivating me because I'm usually forced to stop at 35 or so.

Anyone? Should I just stick to 30-35 and focus on intensity? Should I carb up before I sprint? I am just being a pu**y and it's all in my head?
Reply With Quote
  #11   ^
Old Sat, Sep-08-07, 00:43
CVH's Avatar
CVH CVH is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 299
 
Plan: Carnivore
Stats: 000/200/000 Male 6'2"
BF:
Progress:
Location: FL, USA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KesslerC
I need advice badly.

I'm following this 8 week program and it's going amazingly. I'm just ending week 3.

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1140463

Now, I'm doing HIIT sprinting intervals every second day. The intensity continually increases. (ie. 45 second sprint, 75 second walk, repeat for 18 minutes total)

So, I'm doing this whole thing while doing a CKD. Carbing up on Saturday or Sunday. I can do the weightlifting days no problem but I'm having MAJOR problems with HIIT when the sprints are over 35 seconds.

I don't have any problems pushing my limits. I used to run cross country competitively and I've thrown up from exertion before. It's not the mental part, my body just starts giving out.

I'm thinking it's because I'm in ketosis and sprints are anaerobic exercises. From what I understand anaerobic exercise requires glucose, period. My theory is that past a certain threshold, I use up the small amount of glucose that's in my muscles and because I'm in ketosis I can't resupply it quickly enough in large enough quantities for a sprint that long.

I'm getting very discouraged because I'm not doing the full 45 or 50 second sprints. It's really demotivating me because I'm usually forced to stop at 35 or so.

Anyone? Should I just stick to 30-35 and focus on intensity? Should I carb up before I sprint? I am just being a pu**y and it's all in my head?


I think you are just being a pussy and eating too many carbs.

Listen man, if you restrict your carbs to under 5g or so, you WILL FEEL LIKE S*** for 3-4 weeks when working out hard, and maybe even more, but when your body adapts, you will sprint fine without carbs, I do.

Your choice, either have bad workout days without carbs and good days with carbs, or feel like crap for 4 weeks(took 17 days for me) and then do better than you ever did with carbs, and the longer you stay on it, the better it gets.
Reply With Quote
  #12   ^
Old Sat, Sep-08-07, 07:58
JL53563's Avatar
JL53563 JL53563 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,209
 
Plan: The Real Human Diet
Stats: 225/165/180 Male 5'8"
BF:?/?/8.6%
Progress: 133%
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Default

I have to agree with CVH. I have been keeping my carbs very low for about 21 months now. I have no problem at all with doing extremely intense workouts. But, it does take time to adapt.
Reply With Quote
  #13   ^
Old Sat, Sep-08-07, 09:12
Gostrydr Gostrydr is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,175
 
Plan: close to zero carbs
Stats: 225/206/210 Male 73
BF:
Progress:
Default

I think your intervals are way too long..sprint for 15-20 seconds...that is tough enough

How long does a world class sprinter sprint?? 9.4 to 10 seconds in 100 yards

If you think you should interval at 30-35 seconds, do the stationary bike..it is not as intense and you will not bonk like you would with sprints..

Or run bleachers..run up the bleachers,then walk down the bleachers,run up,walk down..something like that
Reply With Quote
  #14   ^
Old Sat, Sep-08-07, 17:16
KesslerC KesslerC is offline
New Member
Posts: 4
 
Plan: CKD
Stats: 240/236/205 Male 6'4"
BF:
Progress: 11%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JL53563
I have to agree with CVH. I have been keeping my carbs very low for about 21 months now. I have no problem at all with doing extremely intense workouts. But, it does take time to adapt.


I know 45 second full out sprints doesn't sound bad if you've never done it. Sprinting to me is a 100% effort with no pacing at all. I challenge you guys to do this and then get back to me.

45 seconds Max sprint. 75 seconds walk. Repeat for 20 minutes total.

Thats what this 8 week program specified for me today.

I challenge you and CVH to try it and then get back to me. If one of you reports that you had no problem doing it I'll post in here and admit that I'm a sissy boy and that I need to butch up and take it like a man.
Reply With Quote
  #15   ^
Old Sat, Sep-08-07, 20:12
Gostrydr Gostrydr is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 1,175
 
Plan: close to zero carbs
Stats: 225/206/210 Male 73
BF:
Progress:
Default

Kessler, that is fricking tough.. and it is fricking tooooo much. Do all that you can in 15 minutes of HIIT..get as much work done in that 15 minutes..

but cut back the interval length..

BTW you are not a sissy boy bro..I 'm not sure many guys can full out sprint for 45 seconds..
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 00:03.


Copyright © 2000-2024 Active Low-Carber Forums @ forum.lowcarber.org
Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.