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  #1   ^
Old Wed, Jun-22-16, 07:53
Lesliean Lesliean is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 175
 
Plan: Rosedale
Stats: 129/125/122 Female 5.5
BF:
Progress:
Default Off keto and now diabetes numbers-wtf?

Keto for three years and went off 5 days ago. Keep to 55 grams net carbs with only a half of a sweet potato or half an acorn squash my big carb snack. The rest is veggies like brussels sprouts, lots of olive oil, 125 or so protein grams.

After exercise 110 blood glucose but then ate half a acorn squash and now 176.
Picked up two other after exercise 180s in the last five days.
Rest of the time around 107.
Fasting morning 104-98.

What the hay is going on? Am I now diabetic to go along with my tsh suppressed hypothiroidism/hashis and now osteoporosis?

I started keto because of hypoglycemia, fasting blood glucose of 103, belly weight, and fatigue. Has it not improved?

On the other hand I do feel great.
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  #2   ^
Old Wed, Jun-22-16, 09:11
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
Experimenter
Posts: 25,843
 
Plan: DDF
Stats: 202/185.4/179 Female 67
BF:
Progress: 72%
Location: San Diego, CA
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I'd use the metering to figure out just how much carb, and what kind, of carbs you can eat at a meal. Maybe set a limit of 140 1 hour after eating?

Eat to your meter, right?
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  #3   ^
Old Wed, Jun-22-16, 09:12
Seejay's Avatar
Seejay Seejay is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 3,025
 
Plan: Optimal Diet
Stats: 00/00/00 Female 62 inches
BF:
Progress: 8%
Default

Also the protein amount, same thing with the meter.

I would also check from the exercise. Different kinds elicit different surges of insulin for example.
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  #4   ^
Old Thu, Jun-23-16, 08:14
Lesliean Lesliean is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 175
 
Plan: Rosedale
Stats: 129/125/122 Female 5.5
BF:
Progress:
Default

I'm good when I eat only veggies and olive oil and 100 grams of protein. But when I have even one half of a baked acorn squash I go up to 176 bg so it's the carbs.

So how low carb can I go without going back into keto? I'm at 55 net carbs now and if I cut out the acorn squash it'll be 37 net carbs. Is that enough?
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  #5   ^
Old Thu, Jun-23-16, 08:50
Liz53's Avatar
Liz53 Liz53 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,140
 
Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
BF:???/better/???
Progress: 89%
Location: Washington state
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lesliean

So how low carb can I go without going back into keto? I'm at 55 net carbs now and if I cut out the acorn squash it'll be 37 net carbs. Is that enough?


It depends on how many fiber carbs you are eating. Ketosis typically happens with 20-50 TOTAL carbs.

One (or one half) acorn squash might just be too many carbs at once. Try one slice and see what happens. Or, you might want to gradually increase carbs - going up 5 grams total carbs per day each week.

I agree with Nancy that you want to keep your meter handy and test, test, test as you make this transition.
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  #6   ^
Old Thu, Jun-23-16, 09:12
calgal98 calgal98 is offline
New Member
Posts: 16
 
Plan: Atkins/Bernstein
Stats: 282/213/160 Female 68
BF:
Progress: 57%
Default

I can't eat those sweeter veggies. No root veggies, pumpkins, gourds, etc. I have to stick to green, above ground veggies for the most part. I have large swings in blood sugar if I eat those same things. Its an insulin resistance thing, which is part of the hypoglycemia as well, if I'm not mistaken.
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  #7   ^
Old Thu, Jun-23-16, 09:15
khrussva's Avatar
khrussva khrussva is offline
Say NO to Diabetes!
Posts: 8,671
 
Plan: My own - < 30 net carbs
Stats: 440/228/210 Male 5' 11"
BF:Energy Unleashed
Progress: 92%
Location: Central Virginia - USA
Default

Fiber, fat, and protein will dampen the spike of higher carb foods. For me, the order in which I eat my food it is very important as well. If I have a higher carb food (like sweet potato fries) on an empty stomach I'll get a much higher BG spike than I would if eaten with or at the end of a balanced meal.

I also supplement with extra fiber. I whisk up 1 tbsp. of psyillium powder in water (with a squirt of MIO) and drink one down before breakfast and one before dinner. That adds 8g of carbs, 7g of fiber (1 net carb) to each meal and really does seem to help keep my postprandal BG arc much flatter.

I've come to learn that I am reactive hypoglycemic. I digest foods high in the glycemic index much faster than the average person does. High GI foods like squash and sweet potatoes (and even overcooked carrots) will spike my BG if eaten alone. I do use my meter. I use it a lot, especially when eating new food combinations. It helps me figure out how I need to eat.

FYI: I've upped my carbs in the past 6 or 8 months. I was doing more of a keto diet last summer. But these days I eat 70 to 90 total carbs most days with lots of fiber. My average net carbs is around 40g per day.
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  #8   ^
Old Thu, Jun-23-16, 11:00
Jesse LC Jesse LC is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 37
 
Plan: Keto/LCHF
Stats: 237/181/173 Male 72 inches
BF:34%/22%/18%
Progress: 88%
Location: USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khrussva
Fiber, fat, and protein will dampen the spike of higher carb foods.


Maybe I'm mistaken, but didn't Dr. Jason Fung say protein spikes insulin (not as much as carb) even though it may not increase blood sugar much? From watching his videos, he seems to indicate that insulin is the problem but that doctors tend to focus on the high blood sugar and try to control that rather than the insulin. I understood him that if one controls insulin then blood sugar will take care of itself but it maybe still high for some time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpllomiDMX0
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  #9   ^
Old Thu, Jun-23-16, 12:18
khrussva's Avatar
khrussva khrussva is offline
Say NO to Diabetes!
Posts: 8,671
 
Plan: My own - < 30 net carbs
Stats: 440/228/210 Male 5' 11"
BF:Energy Unleashed
Progress: 92%
Location: Central Virginia - USA
Default

I get what you are saying, but I have a BG meter and that is all I can check. I eat enough protein to rebuild and repair my muscle. Given my active lifestyle, that is likely more protein than the average. But what ever the case, apparently my insulin levels remain low enough. I have never had much trouble losing fat with this WOE. My insulin is low enough to allow fat back out of my fat cells. I also appear to be less insulin resistant than I once was. I eat more carbs now and have a significantly lower of a BG spike from my meals compared to what I was getting 18 months ago. So I guess I'm not too worried about my insulin levels. They seem to be doing fine.

What I have come to learn through my experience is that my 'need to eat' feeling was coming from BG spikes, crashes and episodes of low blood sugar. I was feeding the BG wave and not real hunger. I overate high carb food to get my BG back up and as a result and ate sugar way beyond my tolerance for it. In Dr. Fung's analogy, that kept my insulin high, kept trying to shove more glucose into already full cells and kept my fat locked in my fat cells. When I learned how to eat in such a way as to maintain a normal arc in my post meal BG, I found satiety between meals. That gave me the ability to control what and how much I eat. I have found a WOE that works for me. I'm happy.

Being reactive hypoglycemic, I am more concerned about the BG spikes. I think that was the first domino to fall on my way to obesity and diabetes. Everything else was a consequence of that. My body was just not made to eat sugary, low fat, processed food. That junk thrashes my BG. But even some natural and fairly low carb foods can spike my BG and result in carb cravings. Eating those foods in limited quantities and in combination with other foods (protein, fat, & fiber) makes them less of a problem for me as far as the BG spike goes. For me, stable BG means I can stay in control.
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  #10   ^
Old Thu, Jun-23-16, 13:52
Lesliean Lesliean is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 175
 
Plan: Rosedale
Stats: 129/125/122 Female 5.5
BF:
Progress:
Default

Thank you for all the collective wisdom here. I wonder if the average nutritionist or even diabetes doctor really has a clue about these reactions?

Ate half a acorn squash during the workout instead of after and either I'm getting more tolerance to a bit of carb (18 grams after 3 years keto) or it was better tolerated while using it.

I think I'm with you Calgal and will be able to tolerate up to 60 grams net carbs only.

I wonder if I feel so damned much better because I've rehabbed my insulin reaction from three years ketogenic dieting? I thought I was worse off because of the blood glucose rise but maybe I'm better because of the very low insulin numbers of the last three years?
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  #11   ^
Old Fri, Jun-24-16, 11:27
Jesse LC Jesse LC is offline
Registered Member
Posts: 37
 
Plan: Keto/LCHF
Stats: 237/181/173 Male 72 inches
BF:34%/22%/18%
Progress: 88%
Location: USA
Default

Your results are quite impressive Ken; keep it up!

Somebody needs to invent a device or a technique to measure insulin levels. I'd be the first to buy one. I guess we're stuck measuring BG since that's all we can measure for now.

Interestingly, Dr. Fung addresses the issue of seeing high BG even during prolonged fasting:

https://intensivedietarymanagement....enomenon-t2d-8/

At first it makes no sense because if someone is not eating any carbohydrate or excessive protein, or anything at all for that matter, then where does the high BG come from? He says it must come from within the body and it occurs because insulin levels are finally low enough for the liver to start dumping its excess sugar and fat stores. (I see it as analogous to LDL increasing fast when one loses a lot of weight.)

Of course, whenever the liver dumps sugar, then insulin goes right up again immediately to bring down dangerous BG levels. It's kind of a yo-yo effect: through diet or fasting, insulin goes down so the liver can finally release its excess sugar which results in insulin going up again and stopping the process. This counter-action by insulin means it will probably take a while for the liver to heal itself completely especially if one was very insulin resistant to begin with. I guess that's why Dr. Fung always says to take care of the insulin and the BG will eventually take care of itself.

Last edited by Jesse LC : Fri, Jun-24-16 at 11:41.
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  #12   ^
Old Sun, Jun-26-16, 13:04
Lesliean Lesliean is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 175
 
Plan: Rosedale
Stats: 129/125/122 Female 5.5
BF:
Progress:
Default

A week now of paleo/real food from three years ketogenic. Fasting blood glucose now 91 and never see a blood glucose after meals or exercise of higher than 117. I think I corrected any insulin resistance I had. What's so great about having eaten keto for three years is I have a healthy amount of protein spaced out evenly, have lost my fear of fats so eat them, and will never take veggies for granted again.
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  #13   ^
Old Sun, Jun-26-16, 13:48
Liz53's Avatar
Liz53 Liz53 is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,140
 
Plan: Mostly Fung/IDM
Stats: 165/138.4/135 Female 63
BF:???/better/???
Progress: 89%
Location: Washington state
Default

Great news!

Maybe it just took your pancreas a week to catch up with your higher carb intake? Makes sense because we know we have to eat higher carb 3 days (maybe more?) before taking a glucose tolerance test.
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  #14   ^
Old Mon, Jun-27-16, 09:19
Lesliean Lesliean is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 175
 
Plan: Rosedale
Stats: 129/125/122 Female 5.5
BF:
Progress:
Default

Last night I ate 6 macadamia nuts instead of an ounce of cheese after dinner and fasting glucose 100 this morning after 3 mornings of 91 or so. Tonight I'll try the oz of cheese again. If it's lower then what is going on while I sleep? Why does my body need some gluconeogenisis while sleeping?
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  #15   ^
Old Mon, Jun-27-16, 10:07
Seejay's Avatar
Seejay Seejay is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 3,025
 
Plan: Optimal Diet
Stats: 00/00/00 Female 62 inches
BF:
Progress: 8%
Default

If your blood sugar drops too low overnight, your liver will release some glucose, is that what you're asking?

Have you seen Peter at Hyperlipid's article about higher FBS even when fat adapted with extremely low overall insulin?
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