Short summary, see my journal for more details...

My GF and I are trying to have a kid, the Dr. ~ the fertility clinic said she needed to loose serious weight before he could help her. (she started ~ ~ 395lbs, he says he's never succeeded w/ anyone over 300, but many of his patients that lost no longer needed his help) Due to her age, we need to get her size down as quickly as is safe.

She agreed to go on Atkins at the Dr's reccomendation if I would go on it too, and take over the bulk of the food shopping and prep work. Essentially I'm the household diet manager, and 'LC expert'.

I'm doing fine, and loosing well. She is loosing, but not as fast as we would like (~20lbs in 7 wks, but over 10 was the 1st 2 weeks of induction). Mostly we are eating the same foods, except that she does a fair bit of 'frankenfoods' snacking on LC chocolates, Splenda sweetened waters, etc. Otherwise we are eating pretty much per the book, averaging 20-25g / day, on the induction list, w/ some nuts, but no fruits. While we haven't been perfect, I would say that we have managed to stay 95+% 'cheat free' with the failures coming in the form of exceeding total carb allowances occasionally (w/ legal foods) rather than eating forbidden stuff.

I've posted about this in my Journal already, and have been getting some advice from BadgerGirl, I thought I'd post here as well (Hope this is the optimal place, if not moderators may feel free to move this)

We are now in our 8th week. I'm feeling fine but my GF is not. She reports two MAJOR problems, which I'd like to get advice on how to fix.

1. She says she is HUNGRY most of the time, to the point where she sometimes comes home from work early because she has eaten all the food she brought with her (part of her portion control strategy is to only bring the days allowance) and is still to hungry to concentrate.

In terms of how much she is eating, I have trouble seeing that as a problem. I haven't seen anything explicit in DANDR or elsewhere that says you should eat additional food if you are big (which she is, although less so than she was!) We both eat about the same amounts of food for lunch and dinner and often the same for breakfast. She probably eats more snacks, but my snacks tend to be 'real food', while at least some of hers are more of the LC frankenfood variety. I know that I don't feel hungry most of the time, and often have to remind myself to eat snack items when having a long stretch between meals, even though I'm not particularly wanting anything.

2. She says that she feels more irritable, that things which normally don't bother her are starting to get to her. Her shrink (she is on anti-depressants) is aware of this, but doesn't seem to think it rates messing with her meds any. According to her, the shrink hasn't explicitly said as much, but is making suggestions for dealing with it that are consistent with Seasonal Affective Disorder. The timing is such that either explanation (or both) would make sense, but if it's LC related, I'd like to fix it.

I've been reading a great deal on here (much more than I've been posting) and have noticed the consistent pattern that getting rid of the imitation foods seems to resolve issues for people, and seems to be the first suggestion offered for anyone that is having a problem with the LC WOL. I've been trying to get her to stop doing the artificial legal snacks almost since we started, but she insists that having the fake stuff helps keep her from cheating on the real thing.

BadgerGirl suggested that there may also be an emotional / psychological component to my GF's 'hungries' but she emphatically denies this, and insists that it is a physical hunger, not just habit.

However there may also be a reflection of our Pre-LC habbits. I've never been much of a desert eater by habbit (I'd eat it if offered, but wouldn't go out of my way for it) and also didn't do much in the way of snacking between meals. If we went out to eat, my default tended to be things that were heavy on the meat, and not much for frilly stuff (although I did tend to minimize vegetables) she went more for fancy higher carb dishes, was more likely to get desert, etc. She also tended to do more between meal snacking and nibbling.

My darling doesn't think that the frankenfoods are part of the problem, but is willing to try the experiment of getting rid of them, once we have agreed on a definition of just what are and are not frankenfoods to the fussiest degree possible. She makes the reasonable point that if we only get rid of some problem items then the experiment might not prove anything since the remainder might still be causing problems.

She insists on having a definite time span for the experiment, so that if it doesn't work she can go back to her current use of fake chocolates, etc. She would prefer to have the time be as short as possible, I want it to be long enough for any effects to show. I have proposed two weeks as a minimum, which I think will be long enough to show any trends. Success is defined as 1. A faster rate of loss, 2. Her not being hungry any more. While I would always welcome a faster loss rate, my primary concern at this point is that she stop being hungry. DANDR says a person doing LC isn't supposed to feel like she is starving, I want to figure out what we are doing wrong so that my beloved isn't feeling hungry all the time.

Since we are coming up on Thanksgiving, where we will probably be eating OK foods, but not our normal food selections or quantities, and because I feel a need to do a bit more research to come up with a definitive list of what we will and won't eat during the experiment, it seems our logical window will be to use the window between Thanksgiving and Yule.

Does this seem like a reasonable approach?

What particular reccomendations would you make for foods that we should eliminate, or be sure to add?

Any other suggestions as to how to handle this problem?

Sorry for the length, but I didn't want to leave out any essentials.

Gooserider

WOW!

IMO the frankenfoods are a crutch for her, like a security blanket, and she's afraid to let them go. She hates the idea of having to give them up so she'll find any reason/excuse not to. Having a shorter period, making the restrictions really tight, etc. are all ways of trying to make the experiment come out to a conclusion that she can keep the treats. All my opinion based on the above post and my own personal experience. Nobody better tell me that my nuts are ever holding me back - I HAVE to have my almonds BUT, I have to say that if I really have to I will give them up to get to my goal.

Another suggestion: go to www.fitday.com and enter all the foods that she's eating (and you can do yours, too, if you want of course). It could be that she's really not eating enough. I would say to be around 2000 cals or a bit more. Have her ratios be at 70-75% fat, 20-25% protein and 5% carbs. After 3-5 days of keeping to those ratios her appetite should decrease as ketosis kicks in. NO prepackaged food, period!!! The exception could be salad dressing but it has to be less than 2g carbs per tablespoon.

Stick to things like eggs for breakfast (any style) with any leftover meat or a bit of veggies and/or cheese.

Lunch can be a big spinach/romaine salad with leftover meat and some cheese, cucumbers, bacon bits, mushrooms... with dressing. Or tuna salad, egg salad with cucumber or celery slices, leftovers from dinner.

Dinner meat with seasonings and some veggies with butter.

I find that if I stick to simple, natural foods I feel the best and lose the best. No fancy recipes, no sf/lc products, etc. Just the stuff that you find on the outer aisles of the market -- fresh produce, meats and dairy.

I have to admit that I USUALLY drink 1 can of sf soda a day - that helps with any sugar cravings and feels like a really nice treat. I stretch it out over several hours.

HTH,

Nicole

ps -- maybe post some pictures of babies on the fridge, etc? Incentive!!!

Good luck with the baby-making! I don't know what I'd do without mine, I tell ya

I have a huge appetite and the best way I have found to get it under control is to have an "egg" day. A large 3 egg omelet with sausage, onions and lots of cheese (for breakfast, lunch & dinner - if desired) and a deviled egg every time I get hungry throughout the day. By the next day, I have no appetite and it makes following induction levels so much easier.

I would suggest (at this point - anyway) not doing portion control. I think psychologically it would feel like deprivation - especially if you cut out the LC chocolates & frankenfood. If she's hungry she should eat, but limit it to high fat, low carb foods. The fat will suppress the appetite. Have half an avocado (per day) with lots of mayo with pork rinds and unlimited deviled eggs heavy on the mayo. Eat pork rinds with some form of mayo or sour cream based dip. I make "ice cream" with heavy whipped cream, cream cheese, splenda, and a few frozen strawberries blended with a stick blender. Hood CarbCountdown chocolate milk is great for chocolate cravings but cut it half with heavy cream.

As far as the irritability - add a good 100 mg. B-complex supplement daily and 1000 mg. fish oil softgels 3x day.

Hope this helps - good luck to both of you!

1) Let her eat as much as she wants, portion control will come of it's own accord, later. At 375ish pounds she really needs to eat quite a bit more than you (at 256 I eat vastly more than my average weight boyfriend and I lose weight) even while she is losing weight! Check out a BMR calculator (here's one but there are lots out there of varying accuracy, look around for recommendations of a good one). Dr A really didn't want people artificially trying to restrict what they eat, let her take lots of food to work and let her eat until she is satisfied (not stuffed, learning to know the difference will come gradually) at every meal and snacks in between too. She is not going to accept this WoE if she feels deprived of food overall.

2) Eliminate anything at all that contains sugar alcohols for two weeks. Substitute where necessary with home made nice stuff (chocolate cream, ice-cream, whatever it takes). If it's packaged but only contains splenda or the like, okay. But if it's got SA's, do not eat it for 2 weeks. I'm confident this will show results.

3) Keep fat high (about 70% of calories from fat), this helps to satisfy apetite and get/keep you in ketosis which further suppresses apetite to manageable levels for big girls (personal experience speaking here).

4) You sound like a FANTASTIC boyfriend, my hat goes off to you!!!

Try focusing on what she can eat, rather than what she can't, as this may be a major psychological hurdle for her. She can eat eggs and cheese and any meat she desires (watch the fish intake, though, if she's planning to get preggers). Huge salads and vegetables with butter. YUM!

In the end, I think the lc chocolates and candy might be best suited for people nearing maintenance, but otherwise not more than one treat a week during OWL.

Good luck!

I agree with the other posters. Don't worry too much about portion control right now. It will come with time. Also, learning to recognise when to stop eating will take time, so don't fret over that either.

I know you both want her to lose the weight quickly, but 2 lbs per week is a good rate of loss. She could lose a bit more than that, but you also want to have this become a way of life. What she learns during this journey is key to her being successful for weight management for the rest of her life.

I have found that watching calories and carbs works best for me. I know some folks say the sugar alcohols trigger cravings and cause them to eat more. They don't do that for me, but they do increase my calorie intake to the point that I don't lose as quickly. I think your best bet is to log food intake and calories spent at either fitday.com or in their downloadable software, fitday PC. Just as with other things going on, you and she need feedback on what's working and what's not. Using fitday for that feedback is perfect. If you look at it from a weekly perspective, you can see what's not working and take corrective action. It does take some time to do that, so you could try it just for your 2 week trial to get a feel for it.

At her weight, she can probably eat as much as 2500-3000 calories while low carbing and still lose weight - at least for now. When you decrease calories too low, it causes your body to hang on to the fat. Also keep in mind that she needs to be in control of her weight loss. It's great that you are helping her, but in the long term, she is the one that has to make the ultimate choice on what foods she eats. If she is not happy with your choices, she won't easily be able to stick with it for life.

Feel free to come visit the Triple Digits Club forum. The posters there have a lot of experience with losing a lot of weight and understand what she is going through.

You sound like a very caring BF! She is one lucky girl.

I would get rid of candy, meal bars and shakes. It might help to remember that those Atkins bars and such are "meal replacement bars" not snacks. They're way too high calorie. Let her keep the sweetened sodas and what not. For treats, how about you two invest in an ice cream maker and make some low carb ice cream from time to time? Another treat I recommend is a bit of high fat Greek yogurt mixed with a SF syrup (Da Vinci or Torani as examples). Beware of nuts. They're wonderful in proper proportions but its hard to stop sometimes. Some people (me for instance) find they can stop at one portion of nuts if they're unsalted and raw.

As far as hunger is concerned, it might subside in time. Although I think one thing to keep in mind is that something like 50% of the protein you eat gets turned into glucose. She might actually find that lowering her protein intake and raising fat intake might help her hunger a lot. Some of us are following an 80% fat diet and having really good luck with it. We're people who tend to be slow losers and stall a lot.

I realize you're in a hurry for her to lose weight but bodies have their own agendas and some of us lose weight painfully slowly.

Your girlfriend will need to eat more than you probably. It just takes more calories to maintain that weight than you need to maintain yours. I know you want her to lose, but think proportionately, if she cuts her calorie requirements by 20%, she's still eating more than if you cut yours by 20%.

And ditch the portion control for now. Maybe she'll agree to give up the 'treats' if she isn't being limited in her protein/fats. Ketosis is where the appetite suppression is and obviously she isn't there yet, she might be one of the ones that is affected by sugar alcohols.

Good luck!

Valerie

Wow, this is great support, thanks for all the advice.

It does tell me that I'm pretty much on the right track, as with the exception of portion control, it is pretty much what I've been suggesting to her all along. (especially upping the fat and loosing the LC snacks)

So far this has been something that she has regarded as an experiment (Maybe it runs in her blood, both her parents are retired physics professors ) and she is far from convinced that it is possible for her to loose weight - especially after many years of active involvement in the 'fat acceptance' community. I have found that accepting her 'experiment' approach works fairly well, at least as long as I get the right results. She has been honest enough about things that if the experiments show good results she will continue along the path they suggest.

I'm taking it one step at a time, and not pushing to hard on the rate of loss side of things as I understand that it is something where her body will set alot of that agenda. Right now I'm more concerned about getting rid of the hunger and irritability problems, without compromising the existing loss rate. I'd love to see it go faster, but it's totally OK if it doesn't.

I've been reluctant to do Fitday, as we are both already keeping manual logs of our foods and didn't want to add anything else to the load. I'm also somewhat reluctant to put that much personal info on line as a person that generally likes a high level of privacy. I might try doing something off line, but I don't know if fitday is Linux compatible. (If it isn't does anyone have any alternative suggestions?)

I'm definitely going to share these threads with her and see how she feels about them.

Gooserider

Well, could you use made up names in the online Fitday? Maybe register yourself using a hotmail address? I use the offline version of fitday. I'd recommend using that instead of manually writing stuff down. It's very fast once you get your custom foods set up because people tend to eat mostly the same thing all the time.

I bet you could run it on Linux if you setup the windows emulation software (WINE? Or Winex? Forget what it is called).

Another good thing about Fitday is you can use it ahead of time to write down what you're going to eat then fill in any changes at the end of the day. Its a good planning tool.

By the way, you sound like an awesome man! Keep up the good work.

Another option is perhaps trying CAD. If she can't control her sugar cravings, maybe having sugar for an hour a day may help her through the hurdle.

This is a no cheat/no snacking and very honestly low carb diet except for the Reward (eating whatever for under 60 minutes) meal but I have found my cravings have disappeared for me.

All the best to you guys.

I had the GF look at my journal last night, she hasn't read this thread yet, (probably tonight) but she felt like registering to put in her feelings about what I said, and some of the responses I've gotten in my journal. I thought alot of her comments were relevant to this thread as well, so I'm copying her message over to this thread as well...



The replies and support have been great, but I thought it would be worth while to show what she had to say as well.

Gooserider

My opinion is that if this isn't completely for you then don't bother. This has to be for your own health and well being. If you are doing this for someone else as an attraction factor (i.e., to compare to a plus size model?)... pardon my bluntness but DON'T do it for that. You are great as you are and you should be loved as is even if you can't lose a lb. Maybe I have issues here but I pushed myself for someone that I loved once and now he is gone and I am married to someone else. Because for the past 13 years this has been for me I am now strong, healthy and fit and over 100 lbs lighter from when I was in my 20's.

Love yourself as you are and lose weight for yourself and your own reasons.

This is very hard work and often unrewarding, doing it for yourself gets you through those times.

All the best to you...

1. The Response

You people!

No, I am not doing this just for Gooserider. I believe that love is when the happiness of another person becomes essential to your own (which is why he takes me being grouchy so personally), but me losing weight happens to be one of those things that makes us both happy.

Saying he might want me to look like a model was my way to phrase it. He just said he would think it nice if I could get below 200 pounds, maybe more for health reasons than for appearance, for all I know.

Gooserider is more of an optimist than I am. If DANDR says that someone can lose 100 pounds, well why not 200 pounds? My history of attempts at weight loss that didn't work makes me a pessimist. 20 pounds in 6 weeks is better than I ever expected.

2. Now What?

I think the most useful thing would be to figure out what I need to do next, rather than why I might want to do it.

One idea is to get rid of all kinds of foods that might be problems for 2 weeks, up the portion sizes, add a B complex vitamin each morning, and see if the hungries go away. If they go away, we try adding back the problem foods, one per week (and not during Yule) and figure out which foods cause me trouble.

I think the consensus here is that if this works, I won't want as large a portion after a while, so the calory count will take care of itself in time.

Are there any other options we should consider instead?

What if the hungries don't go away?

Is 2 weeks on the minimal diet (KIS or some variant) long enough to find out?

I'm sorry if I offended you.