Ketones are present at all times. They increase as carbs are depleted, but they are present at other times. Here is a non-dietary reference that shows that ketones are available in non-starvation periods.
http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/20/1/56

I am struck by the loaded terminology in the scientific language. Why don't they say: Upon cessation of carbohydrate gluttony, oxaloacetate levels decrease in the liver because it is needed for gluconeogenesis. As a result, Acetyl-CoA no longer goes into the Krebs cycle because it is converted in liver mitochondria to ketone bodies.

The reference mentioned that "The subjects were in a fasting state".

However, the availability of an insignificant amount of ketones at all times could be expectable. This is because even if you eat more than 200 grams of carbohydrate a day, the carb absorbtion process may not be 100% consistant. So, your body may believe at some moments that you are in carbohydrate starvation and some few ketones are produced.

In medical school I studied all this stuff 20 years ago. Reading the latest edition of Guyton's Medical Physiology texty, I gleaned the following:

Fat cells of the body keep a small pool of fatty acids handy. The fatty acids become acetoacetic acid or beta-hydroxybutyric acid and acetone. These fatty acids diffuse freely into tissue to ultimately enter the citric acid cycle.

The rise in concentrations of the three compounds is called ketosis and the the compounds collectively are ketone bodies.

In no-carb diets, the body adapts to use far more ketone bodies than usual and ketosis does not occur. The Inuit, living on almost exclusively on fat, do not develop ketosis. Several factors affect the rate of acetoacetic acid metabolism. Brain cells normally derive almost all of their energy from glucose. But after a few weeks of ketosis can derive 50 to 75 percent of their energy from fats.

It depends how you define ketosis. It's false if you define ketosis as measurable ketosis (meaning tasting nailpolish breath, being real thirsty, having no appetite, turning a strip pink, whatever measure you use to estimate ketone concentration). It's true if you use the most literal definition of ketosis as meaning "breaking down fat into energy producing some ketones". You cannot break down fat (lipolysis) without creating a ketogenic state (ketosis). It's simply impossible. However it is entirely possible to break down such a small quantity of fat that ketosis is undetectable (for example, a normal diet or even a moderate low fat weight loss diet - in which the small amount of fat comes from diet and/or body fat)

Not necessarily. Carbohydrate sensitivity excluded for simplicity of understanding, people on low fat diets who lose weight are producing ketones from burning body fat. The caloric deficit forces them to draw on body fat stores, which they then break down into ketones. It's just that the majority of their energy needs are met from dietary glucose so ketone concentration never rises to the point where it is detectable, the same way people on a normal fat calorie-adequate rarely have detectable amounts of ketones in their bodies because dietary fat is too small a percentage of energy for ketone concentration to be noticeable.

Sometimes even people on low fat diets or normal diets can have ketone concentration rise enough so it's detectable. It's not uncommon for individuals who like to exercise first thing in the morning to detect ketosis afterward. Of course this stops when they eat and there body burns sugar for energy again.

There can be no ketosis without lipolysis. Lipolysis does not mean "weight loss" lipolysis means "breaking down fat into usable energy" (i.e. ketones). People who fail to lose weight on ketogenic diets are simply eating too much caloric energy from dietary fats for their metabolism, so no energy deficit is created and the body does not burn it's own fats. This uncommon phenomena (uncommon because the limited/boring nature of a ketogenic diet combined with its potent anorexic effect usually means some weight loss) does not invalidate the statement. All it means is that ketosis does not help everyone eat less and lose weight.

What troubles me about your theory is that it doesn't seem based on anything observable.

1) IF fats are metabolized differently depending on the presence of dietary carbohydrate, what is the nature of the "other way"?
I know carbohydrate encourages storage because carbohydrate promotes insulin, and I also know that the body prefers to utilize carbohydrate and store fat since this is the "thriftiest" route. So, if you eat caloric excess, the body is more likely to store the fat and not burn it. Complicating matters further, the level at which "excess" happens decreases the higher percentage of carbohydrate you eat (since it is more metabolically efficient for the body to use carbohydrate as fuel, less calories are burned and the point at which dietary fat stops being burned and starts being stored gets increasingly less generous).

2) I do not believe it is impossible to store fat on a ketogenic diet. I believe it is less likely since appetite is usually crushed and the body is better at burning fat & metabolism is generally higher. I don't believe it is impossible. The only only way fail to store fat is if there is a deficit of insulin of such a magnitude that one is diseased, like T1 DM. Without insulin more things happen besides not being able to store fat. You get out of control fat burning, you get ketoacidosis, hyperglycemia as the body keeps making & dumping more sugar from protein. You die very quickly.
Basically what I'm saying is this. If it were true that eating only fat created a deficit of insulin to the point where it was IMPOSSIBLE to store fat, then it would also be true that a deficit of insulin of that magnitude would create numerous other side effects which were less desirable and quite fatal. It is , quite simply, an abnormality to not be able to store fat. It is a normal function of a normal body. If the body can't store fat that also means it can't do other essential things.

Yea the water loss the first few days is mostly from depleting glycogen, but I think extreme low carb is diuretic in of itself.
This is conjecture on my part, but I believe when one is in deep ketosis and eating very few carbohydrates, insulin is so low that the body finds it more difficult to store and retain much of anything. We all know insulin plays a key role storing/retaining nutritional energy so it's easier to lose weight & hunger is correspondingly decreased in ketosis. However insulin also plays a role in storing/retaining minerals, electrolytes, and maintaining fluid homeostasis. That's why people who tend toward high pressure, bloating, retaining sodium etc these conditions get immediately better once carbs are restricted.
So if you're in a state that is predominantly catabolic because you're eating so few carbohydrates, thus reducing insulin, you might also find it that you tend toward dehydration and electrolyte loss.

As I see it your options are to increase fluid intake and make sure to supplement with minerals or to increase carbs slightly until symptoms abate... however this might interfere with weight loss effectiveness as hunger may increase slightly and metabolism drop.

Just my :2cents:

Ketone bodies, remnants of burned fats, are always being produced by the body regardless of the amount of carbohydrates consumed. Ketosis is the measureable amount of ketones that are detected in urine, lungs etc. Lungs, urine is where they are expelled when carb intake is very low. Now I don't use the term carbohydrate starvation because the body doesn't need nearly as many carbs that we once used before this woe. So you can't starve it from something that it doesn't need. My focus is with insulin resistance. The overload of insulin will render glucagon inactive. The biggest cause of obesity is insulin resistance brought on by by consistantly high insulin levels caused by carbohydrate overload. The primary weapon against a low-fat high-complex-carb diet is one that removes the instability of insulin. Conclusion:remove the high-complex-carbohydrate/low-fat diet so that insulin can become stable. This will activate glucagon needed for lipolysis. Insulin and glucagon regulates the flow of fat from fat cells. This is why so many of us are able to lose a large percentage of our weight without exercising.

Here is a direct quote from Protein Power on p.122 "We have found that you don't usually have to worry about calories on this program. The metabolic alterations that take place as your insulin falls and your senstivity to it improves will increase the rate at which you use calories, and you will find that the standard calorie rules simply do not apply in predicting weight loss."

Even though it says that there is no immediate concern with watching calories it also points out the importance of everyday common sense. Caloric intake should not become too high or too low. Mileage will vary. It is also more likely that calories will fall too low, initially, due to the loss of appetite that stabilization of insulin creates. Therefore it is important to eat at regular intervals even if there is no appetite.

Increased urination, like ketosis, is caused by glucagon. Glucagon which assists in fat elimation prompts the kidneys to rid the body of the excess water which is no longer needed to burn fat. It allows the body to rid itself of excess water, it does not force it.

All good answers, one more thing is that insulin in the blood causes the kidneys to retain water, lower the insulin and it is released.
While I would neve say that it is impossible to add fat no matter how much one eats, I know from experimenting on my self that I can consume large amounts of calories and not gain as long as I eat low carb. Insulin is necessary to add body fat, low carb does lower the amount of insulin in the system. Nyah Levi

Here is what ketosis means according to Dr. Atkins' book:



Do the two explanations sound the same to you?

Ok you smarties can you answer this for me?

I have started reading about hypoglycemia, the diet they recommend no sugar, alcohol, caffeine, aspartame, low glycemic carbs and eat protein every few hours. This diet is to reduce symptoms of hypoglycemia-not weight loss. They say it can take 4 months before symptoms are alleviated.

Does that mean that lowblood sugar (hyperinsulemia) continues in the absence of carbs and can take months to reduce to a normal level?

Is it usual that reducing carbs will increase insulin sensitivity? (can I count on being normal as an effect of lowcarbing)?

If caffeine causes blood sugar fluctuations why does Atkins Accel supplement have 150mg/day of it?

Is hyperinsulemia the reason that I have never gotten that big whoosh of weight loss in induction that others report? I lose about a pound a week and it almost seems to be unaffected by my carb intake as long as my calories are at the same level.

In my experience, my immediate hypoglycemic symptoms vanished shortly after initiating the diet. I didn't realize that migraines were associated with hypoglycemia but even those vanished very soon after low carb.That doesn't mean that I didn't continue to have symptoms but there were none that I was aware of.

Your cells will always be resistant to a certain extent. But hyperinsulinemia ( hyper=high insulin=insulin emia=blood ) high blood insulin which causes a massive reduction in glucose, hypoglucemia, ( hypo=low glyc=sugar emia=blood ) will be controlled as long as insulin is not overly stimulated. Insulin reacts to the carbohydrate as it is consumed. Reducing the carbohydrate will likewise reduce / balance the insulin at that moment. Yes, reducing carbs will increase insulin sensitivity, IMHO. I have come to that conclusion because I can eat a little bit of a bad carb, such as a few potato chips, with little or no affect. I have not suffered a spike in insulin by a carb indiscretion in 2 1/2 years.

That is what I don't believe in. I know that medicine is not my field but I know that when I studied the digestion of both carbs and fats many years ago I never heared the word "ketone". I heared this word for the first time when I read Dr. Atkins book in 2003.

After I read the book, I called a relative who is an old retired physician and asked him what ketones are, his answer was "I know it is one of the toxics which the body could produce during digestion under specific conditions and must get rid of!"

You need to know that Dr. Atkins Wade, Heller, ... are just a few doctors who came with theories which the majority of the world doctors are still looking at as false science.

We think that the obesity problem has been created by excessive carb intake, they believe that it has been created by excessive fat intake. We think that insulin has everything to do with obesity, they think that insulin has nothing to do with it. We think that carbs are unhealthy, they think that fats are. We think that when we go to McDonald, we should eat the burger without the bun, they think that we should eat the bun without the burger!

Naturally I must be on Dr. Atkins side, but I always believe that the truth could not be told by one side alone. The real smart person is the person who believes that he is not the smartest. So, I'm trying to find whatever can link what they know and what we know together.

Thanks so much for your help Black, you have inspired me to take this thing seriously and to keep learning more about what I can do to help myself. Not sure why my doctor never told me this stuff. He just said "eat fat at breakfast".

I think that insulinemia and the onset of peri-menopause share a special bond. I see that you are 42 nawchem , it is a possibility that you are experienceing peri-menopause also. PM does cause us older, good looking babes, to hang on to weight. I have theorized that I became peri-menopausal around the same time that I became hypoglycemic. Peri-menopause can last a very long time. When I became hypoglycemic, I began to put on weight and, as you can see from my stats, weightloss has been slow for me. I have not been told that I am going thru peri-menopause. I have had no symptoms but at the age of 48, menopause has to be nearby.

Here is another theory. Diabetes and full-blown menopause are also related. Here is why I have come to that conclusion: my mom became diabetic 2-3 years after she reached menopause...she was around 57 at the time. My sister had a hysterectomy when she was 43 ( surgically induced menopause ) she was recently diagnosed as diabetic. She is 46.