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  #1   ^
Old Mon, Dec-11-23, 15:07
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Demi Demi is offline
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Default Heather Mills blames ‘litany of lies’ as vegan empire collapses

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Heather Mills blames ‘litany of lies’ as vegan empire collapses

VBites founder says celebrity campaigns have driven fall in demand for plant-based food


Heather Mills has blamed the “gaslighting” meat industry for the collapse of her vegan food empire.

Ms Mills, who previously stated ambitions to turn the North East of England into the “Silicon Valley of plant-based foods”, said in a statement on her website that she was “devastated” as VBites prepares to file for administration this week.

VBites was founded in 1993 and describes itself as the “original plant-based food pioneers”. It makes meat-free sausages, burgers and fish fingers, and previously had a supplier deal with McDonald’s.

Ms Mills criticised celebrity campaigns promoting dairy products and the meat industry for fuelling the decline in demand for vegan foods.

Ms Mills wrote: “One of the major issues the plant-based market needs to tackle is the galvanised and well-funded marketing of misinformation currently being undertaken by the meat and dairy industries – and sadly backed by select celebrities who, in my view, should take their responsibilities as influencers much more seriously.

“Many of the campaigns we are seeing such as the ‘Got milk’ campaign by the dairy industry, joking about plant milk, insulting lactose intolerant people as well as ethical environmental animal lovers, are well-funded gaslighting initiatives that detract from the facts and sow the seeds of doubt in consumers who deserve to know the truth.

“The plant-based industry needs to take a lead from the dairy industry in unifying its voice but as a force for good and promotion of the facts – as opposed to a litany of lies and misinformation.”

Ms Mills, who is the ex-wife of Sir Paul McCartney, added that a combination of “corporate greed and poor management”, the cost of living crisis and rising prices were also to blame for VBites’ collapse.

In 2021, Ms Mills sold a 25pc stake in VBites to Pfeifer & Langen, the owner of German food company Intersnack which counts Tyrrells crisps and Hula Hoops among its brands.

She added: “It is unsurprising and inevitable that where profits are to be made, amorphous corporate entities will follow and unfortunately their practices too often undermine the entrepreneurial spirit, flexibility and agility of movement that saw plant-based entrepreneurs have so much success.

“There is too often a tendency to treat their investments as short-term experiments and opportunistic flights of fancy, embalm them in restrictive governance and then either walk away or enforce a takeover when the market hits a bump.”

Ms Mills founded VBites after she gave up animal products as an alternative therapy to traditional medicine, claiming it aided her recovery from the 1993 traffic accident which caused the loss of one of her legs.

The company, which owns three factories in the North East of England, sells more than 140 different products to supermarkets, as well as catering and hospitality businesses, exporting its products to 20 different countries.

Since the pandemic demand for plant-based food has slowed and numerous vegan food companies have collapsed, including Meatless Farm, which was bought by a rival brand, VFC, in June.

Big food suppliers such as Nestlé, meanwhile, have axed some of their vegan products, while supermarkets have cut back the number of lines they sell. Pret a Manger has closed most of its “Veggie Pret” stores.

When the sausage maker Heck cut its range of vegan products from 15 down to two earlier this year, its founder, Andrew Keeble, said: “The public somehow wasn’t quite ready for it yet. They didn’t want all that veg in the sausage.”

Ms Mills said she had invested “tens of millions of pounds” of her own money into VBites and tried “every solution I feasibly could to keep it going”.

She added: “Anyone that knows me well, knows the blood, sweat and tears that my team and I have put into the business, for the sole purpose of furthering the plant-based movement, of which we have been the pioneers for over 30 years and effecting a major shift in global human health, the preservation of the environment and the protection of animal welfare.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...liftigniter-rhr
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  #2   ^
Old Mon, Dec-11-23, 16:05
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deirdra deirdra is offline
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Dairy & Meat are real foods. We don't want your chemical concoctions.
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  #3   ^
Old Mon, Dec-11-23, 20:56
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Bob-a-rama Bob-a-rama is offline
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Why would a vegan want imitation meat?

I suppose for reasons I wouldn't understand.
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Old Mon, Dec-11-23, 22:36
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Calianna Calianna is offline
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I've wondered about that too.


But then I think maybe it's similar to how LCers often want imitation sweets and imitation starches that look like the real thing, and taste similar to the real thing.

What I mean by this is that my pre-LC favorite sides for thanksgiving were always the stuffing, mashed potatoes and gravy, so I make LC substitutes for those - dressing made from oopsie rolls instead of bread (complete with the same seasonings I grew up eating), mashed cauliflower instead of potatoes, and gravy thickened with xanthan instead of flour. (For dessert, I make a LC friendly pumpkin bake to substitute for the pumpkin pie.) Having those LC subs instead of all the starchy/sugary food helps me blend in at the table, and most people don't notice that what I'm eating looks a little different.

I know that no one else at the table will like any of those - I make them ahead of time, put them on my plate and heat them in the microwave before sitting down to Thanksgiving dinner. It's either that, or have nothing on my plate other than some turkey, while the rest of the table is having seconds and thirds of starch and sugar with a side of more starch and sugar, and groaning because they're overfull. If all I had was some turkey, my stomach would be growling, and they'd think that I'm either too snobby to eat regular food, or I've become an anorexic.

The difference is that I'm not trying to stand out as eating a superior diet (even if I do think it's a superior way of eating), and pushing those LC foods on anyone else. They're for ME (mine, all mine!), even though I think a lot of the people at Thanksgiving dinner would be better off eating the things I'm eating instead of their piles of starches and sugars. (And I'd share if anyone wanted to try them - but they generally don't even realize I'm eating something different)

On the other hand, it doesn't sound like most vegans eat fake meats in order to not stand out as the "odd" person who is eating lettuce, tomatoes, and pickles with no burger on their bun at the cookout.

Instead they do seem to pontificate about the superiority of their fake meat that tastes "just like the real thing", because they're convinced that the real thing is bad for them and bad for the planet.

I strongly suspect it's more of an indoctrination tactic to eat fake meat than because they actually LIKE the fake meat.
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Old Tue, Dec-12-23, 12:44
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GRB5111 GRB5111 is offline
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Not to worry, Heather. There's always Stanford University professor Christopher Gardner. He can get you funding from the right people, make a movie, and maybe construct a rigged RCT to get you back on track . . .
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Old Tue, Dec-12-23, 15:57
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I am trying really hard not to see irony in this messaging.

Perhaps her products were all natural, minimally processed, whole foods rather than heavily processed concoctions of chemically laden, ultra processed, food-like substances…

She specifically calls out the “Got milk” campaign as damaging, though it isn’t clear she even sold milk alternatives (and those alternative products are selling very well in the US).

Did I miss a campaign to take down black bean and mushroom burgers?

The more damaging messaging against her product space would seem to be “minimize ultra-processed foods”. Is the evil “meat industry” responsible for that? Is that “misinformation”? “gaslighting”? It is a message that has a firm grip on me, but I got that bias from 1970’s era “health nuts” followed by actual nutrition science, not from “meat industry” propaganda.

She supplied fast-food in the form of “sausages” and “fish fingers” to McDonald’s. I guess that ends my attempt at sympathy.
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Old Tue, Dec-12-23, 18:23
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cotonpal cotonpal is offline
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Personally I am finding this good vs evil narrative absurd, the holier than thou vegans vs the evil animal food eaters.
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Old Tue, Dec-12-23, 18:58
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Bob-a-rama Bob-a-rama is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calianna
I've wondered about that too.


But then I think maybe it's similar to how LCers often want imitation sweets and imitation starches that look like the real thing, and taste similar to the real thing.<...snip...>


That's a good point. I eat a bit of low-carb pasta, and some low-carb bread every now and then, plus I sweeten my coffee and tea with stevia.

Why? If I eat too many carbs, I'll weigh 300 pounds in no time.

I suppose if the vegans were utterly convinced that meat is bad for their health, eating fake meat might be an alternative. But my opinion is that the highly processed fake meat is extremely unhealthy, and meat is not.

But we are all different.

We have two close friends who are vegans. They don't preach, I never asked why they are vegans, and they never offered. It's just what they eat. I'm a picky eater, so I understand. We do find places to eat where they have a menu that allows the vegans and omnivores to eat and enjoy each others company.

The preachy, militant vegans that try to convert me to their philosophy that bother me. They are as bad as religious zealots that try to convert me to their particular sect.

Live and let live.

I found what works for me, and I don't want to force you to eat like I eat. Others are free to do the same.

Bob
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Old Wed, Dec-13-23, 10:31
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Calianna Calianna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NHSB
I am trying really hard not to see irony in this messaging.

Perhaps her products were all natural, minimally processed, whole foods rather than heavily processed concoctions of chemically laden, ultra processed, food-like substances…

She specifically calls out the “Got milk” campaign as damaging, though it isn’t clear she even sold milk alternatives (and those alternative products are selling very well in the US).

Did I miss a campaign to take down black bean and mushroom burgers?

The more damaging messaging against her product space would seem to be “minimize ultra-processed foods”. Is the evil “meat industry” responsible for that? Is that “misinformation”? “gaslighting”? It is a message that has a firm grip on me, but I got that bias from 1970’s era “health nuts” followed by actual nutrition science, not from “meat industry” propaganda.

She supplied fast-food in the form of “sausages” and “fish fingers” to McDonald’s. I guess that ends my attempt at sympathy.


My older daughter lives in England and just happens to not only be lactose intolerant, she's also allergic to fish and seafood.

So she might actually be interested in whatever milk substitute and fake fish Heather is pushing.

For some reason she insists that the lactose-free milk available in the US doesn't keep, so she generally gets soy milk to use on her cereal when she's here, since she says the soy at least has more nutrition in it than the almond and oat milks do.

As far as fish is concerned though, she just avoids anything and everything that has fish and seafood in it. I think she really misses it though, and might be interested in something like fake seafood.

For someone who is allergic to certain foods, I can understand seeking out some kind of substitute when they miss the foods they're allergic to, just like I use some LC friendly substitutes for high carb foods.

But I don't think Heather is looking at the situation that way - I get the impression that she thinks everyone needs to fall into lock-step with her beliefs that all animal products are bad for you. (Even though I suspect even she believes the main thing that animal foods are bad for is actually her bank account.)
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  #10   ^
Old Wed, Dec-13-23, 13:04
NHSB NHSB is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calianna
My older daughter lives in England and just happens to not only be lactose intolerant, she's also allergic to fish and seafood.

So she might actually be interested in whatever milk substitute and fake fish Heather is pushing.


I completely understand why consumers might want such products. I have made my share of homemade almond milk (and black-bean/mushroom burgers back in the 70’s).

What has me scratching my head is the failed-business owner’s assessment that some “litany of lies” from the “meat industry” were the downfall of her business empire.

Perhaps it is out there, but I haven’t heard any propaganda trying to drive people away from consuming plant-based foods. On the other hand, I hear messaging every day pushing for the elimination of animal-based foods. The food industry, media and medical establishments seem to have jumped onto the plant-based wagon and environmental messaging with gusto.

Perhaps there is validity in her complaint, but it is hard to find. It does seem likely she faces much more competition from other plant-based producers now given the popularity of at least some plant-based products.
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  #11   ^
Old Wed, Dec-13-23, 14:19
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Demi Demi is offline
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Quote:
Veganism is in crisis, and the fanatics can only blame themselves

The arguments for plant-based alternatives are crumbling. So too is support for what may in future be viewed as little more than a fad


Q: “How do you tell if someone is a vegan?”

A: “You don’t have to, they’ll tell you.”

Maybe it’s jokes like that, highlighting society’s stereotypical view of vegans as arrogant virtue-signallers, that have led to a slump in demand for some plant-based alternatives to meat and dairy, as well as a slew of business failures among manufacturers of plant-based food – most recently Heather Mills’s company VBites, which has just announced it is going into administration.

Despite veganism being endorsed by a number of celebrities, such as the BBC’s controversial wildlife presenter Chris Packham, it doesn’t seem to have made much headway beyond those segments of the market that are either apocalyptic about climate change or fanatical about animal rights – or both. Perhaps much like Mr Packham himself.

Then there’s the argument that veganism is good for your health, which has been on an increasingly sticky wicket, deconstructed by books such as the award-winning The Great Plant Based Con by Jayne Buxton. There is also a growing backlash against ultra-processed foods, which many vegan products are.

But Ms Mills had the gall to blame “gaslighting” by the meat industry for the collapse of her vegan food empire. As a member of the meat “industry”, I take exception to that. Of course it is not really an industry at all in the UK – it is made up of family farms, in stark contrast to the public relations agencies promoting vegan diets.

Farmers have been hounded and smeared by radical vegan activists for years. I wrote in these pages back in September about Laura Corbett, the Gourmet Goat Farmer, who was targeted by vegan “activists” on social media. Her business was attacked by malicious Trip Advisor reviews.

Indeed, I would suggest that consumers have been put off by the taint of fanaticism surrounding vegan foods. Recent research has shown that omnivorous consumers are less likely to buy products if they are labelled with the V-word. While it is too early to consign veganism to the history books, I suspect when that history is written it will be seen as a fad that was rejected by the British public largely because the wild behaviour of its more extreme followers trashed the brand.

It always seemed unlikely that, after millennia evolving on an omnivorous meat-rich diet, we would then wholly abandon it. There is only one species that has ever done that: the panda. And that has not been an unqualified success.

If the vegans had wanted to actually persuade people to eat better, rather than hector them, they could have chosen a much less blunt message. But a more effective, nuanced approach, focused on stopping the harmful aspects of meat and dairy production, was not pursued and all livestock farmers were tarred with the same brush. This happened even after the positive environmental role of grass-based beef farmers was recognised by the authorities, as they began to be paid carbon credits for the net carbon they sequester.

We can’t allow vegans to continue to ruin the debate about food. We need a real food counter-revolution.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...atics-to-blame/
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Old Wed, Dec-13-23, 14:25
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How the multi-billion dollar vegan bubble finally burst

Consumer tastes are changing – but is this really the end for ‘fake meat’ substitutes?


The year began so optimistically. Veganuary was hailed a triumph with record numbers signing up all over the world – only the Vatican City and North Korea were missing from the list of countries where people committed to a meat-free start to the year.

Pope Francis famously loves a steak, so that was chalked up to a win. It was to be the year when our eating habits would shift, driven by a cost-of-living crisis that was sending meat and dairy prices soaring, coupled with a pressure to eat with one eye on the planet. By March, the plant-based picture was looking altogether less rosy.

First, Nestlé announced it was withdrawing its vegan ranges Garden Gourmet and Wunda from sale in the UK, saying the products were simply “not viable”. In May, it was the turn of British sausage company Heck, which announced it was reducing its range of meat-free products, citing a lack of consumer appetite.

Most of its vegan sausages and burgers were shelved, with co-founder Jamie Keeble declaring shoppers were just “not there yet” when it came to buying vegan. And Heck weren’t the only ones.

Analysis by The Grocer showed the number of meat-alternative lines on sale in Tesco, Sainsbury’s, Asda, Morrisons and Waitrose fell 10.9 per cent in the 26 weeks to March 20.

Further signs the meat-free boom was beginning to trail off came in June, when Meatless Farms stopped trading and let staff go (though they were later acquired by a plant-based company). Then came the big one: Beyond Meat.

Launched in 2012 with investment from Bill Gates and Kim Kardashian, Beyond Meat was the original meat-free fast food brand, providing the plant-based options for McDonald’s and KFC. It was on the Nasdaq exchange by 2019, by which point the meat-free market was beginning to grow.

Four years later, in August this year, the company announced sales had fallen by almost a third, blaming “softer demand in the plant-based meat category”.

The appetite for meat alternatives had, it seemed, slumped. News outlets, including this one, declared the vegan bubble officially burst.

According to Heather Mills, the “gaslighting” meat and dairy industries are to blame for the great fake meat flop. Mills, who once declared she was going to turn the North East into the “Silicon Valley of plant-based foods”, is the latest in a long line of meat-free casualties in 2023.

As the vegan business she founded in the ’90s, VBites, prepared to file for administration this week, she criticised the industries whose campaigns she accused of both “insulting lactose-intolerant people” and sowing “seeds of doubt in consumers who deserve to know the truth”.

One interpretation of “the truth” might simply be that the fake meat experiment has flopped.

Plant-based meats should be booming in Britain – government figures show we are eating less meat at home now than we have done since 1974. And yet, it seems that four years after the market swelled with meatless burger brands, our tastes never quite caught up.

When it came to it, many of us didn’t actually want to swap our sausages for vegan alternatives, our beef burgers for beetroot, our chicken nuggets for tempeh. In fact, the latest Kantar data shows the past year has seen a nine per cent drop in fake meat sales in Britain.

Why? It’s partly because consumers never quite got on board with the idea that fake meat was really going to be healthier for them than the real thing. This year’s annual Waitrose Food & Drink Report revealed how an increased understanding of the risks of ultra-processed foods (UPFs) has led some to “turn away” from mock meats and fish, “prompting manufacturers to ditch lines that aren’t selling”.

Rather than seeking out imitation chicken packed with flavourings to make it taste as close to the real thing as possible, consumers now want plants to look and taste like plants. “We’re noticing a shift towards more natural plant-based ranges,” says Catherine Shadlock, a vegan buyer at Waitrose.

Gabriela Peacock, a nutritionist who counts Princess Beatrice and Dame Joan Collins among her clients, says attitudes towards meat replacements are changing. Peacock is “generally quite negative” about fake meats.

“Generally, they are made from a lot of additives and some fake proteins – it’s very far from a natural vegan diet and from plant-based foods.”

A meat-free chicken nugget is no healthier than a regular one, she says. “It’s extremely processed. Also it can be quite bland. If you’re faking the chicken you need to get the flavour from somewhere. [...] There will be a lot of e-numbers and flavourings and sugars.”

A rise in the popularity of protein-rich diets has led to a change in how people feel about meat, says Peacock, who has seen a shift away from plant-based lifestyles and back towards meat eating among her clients.

“It’s completely turning around. It’s been very popular to be vegetarian or vegan – [now] I can see quite a big turn. People do understand that actually meat is really not that bad if it’s from good sources.

“Now, I see a lot of clients that were vegetarian are now going back to having a steak once a week, because it’s very hard to maintain the protein intake. You become tired. Protein is absolutely essential. If you’re a vegan and you don’t want to eat processed food, you have to eat a lot of lentils.”

For many consumers, cost has been a factor too. “Some vegan mimics can be more expensive than the real thing, which has deterred non-vegan shoppers who just want to eat less meat and a few more plants,” says Shadlock. For others, it’s a matter of taste.

Received wisdom in 2018 was that if you were going to give up burgers, you’d want your plant-based alternative to still bleed like a cow. For some, that was borne out; others realised they would really rather a chickpea looked like a chickpea, a soybean like a soybean, not a minced hunk of meat.

But for all the changes in consumer tastes, experts suggest this isn’t necessarily the end for fake meat (Waitrose say the bubble is “maturing” rather than burst) – in fact, some say a dip like this was on the cards all along.

Andy Shovel, founder of plant-based meat brand THIS, says this is par for the course with “any new and emerging category”. “It happened with craft beer when craft beer went crazy a few years ago. It happened with smoothies in the late ’00s. It happened with coconut water.

“What tends to happen is you get an over-proliferation of brands, where everyone is like ooh craft beer this is cool we’re going to pile into this. You tend to get consumer demand remaining relatively stable but then loads of brands drop out because the market consolidates around the best-quality brands and products, like Brewdog with craft beer, or Vita Coco with coconut water.”

Shovel says in his sector, when companies like Beyond Meat and Oatly achieved IPO, they had “very high valuations”. “Valuations that were completely detached from the fundamentals of the business. So it did set the bar pretty high for investors. And I think that’s been a challenge for the category to meet those expectations from investors.”

Sales at his own company are 50 per cent up year on year, though after four years they are not yet profitable (they hope to be by the end of next year). Does he see the conversation around UPFs as posing a risk to companies like his, which make processed meat alternatives like plant-based bacon (made out of soya protein, pea protein and vegetable extracts among other things)?

“Only as much as it does sliced bread companies,” says Shovel, who feels the UPF debate lacks nuance. “A consumer doesn’t know when they go to the supermarket whether their pasta is less or more bad than cupcakes or sliced bread.

“It’s completely insane to have a binary debate about that, it produces no guidance to the customer at all that they can practically use.” Instead, he argues, the UPF debate leaves consumers feeling they’re “not allowed anything apart from vegetables”, which isn’t really how anyone shops or eats.

But while there might be a fight to the death playing out between the UPF naysayers and the plant-based devotees, there is also a sense among experts that meat-free brands have missed the mark when it comes to branding.

Lindsay Gorton-Lee, a brand strategy consultant at Kantar, points out that only seven per cent of meat-free buyers identify as vegan. Rather than casting consumers who don’t buy fake meat as being vegan-avoidant, or suggesting people are just “not there yet” when it comes to meat-free alternatives, these companies should be aiming their branding at a broader church.

“Are enough brands really stepping up to the plate and delivering the right mix of value, health, taste and sustainability to match appetites?” she asks.

Very few meat-free brands are “meaningful” to consumers yet, says Gorton-Lee. “There was a boom in 2019 and there are now a number of players in the market and what we [can see] is there is a range of equity – not all of these new brands have built equity yet in consumers’ minds.”

Young brands are all “vying for share”, she says. Meanwhile, Kantar data reveals that when it comes to plant-based food, our tastes are pretty old-fashioned – three of the biggest meat-free brands in Britain are still Quorn, Linda McCartney and Birds Eye.

“The established brands are really strong. […] When you look at the power of those brands there is a really long tail in terms of the equity they have built.”

There are “opportunities still to be met” though, she says. Kantar’s research shows people want “health and convenience” from their meat-free products. “People are looking for those incremental benefits,” she says, urging alternative meat companies to focus on “what they are bringing as a brand”, rather than making assumptions about what people want.

Would a new meat-free brand launching next year have a chance? “Absolutely,” says Gorton-Lee. “If they can get it right before they are delisted.”

There’s a challenge to the fake meat founders for 2024.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/food-an...uary-processed/
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Old Sat, Dec-16-23, 07:09
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WereBear WereBear is online now
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Early on, lowcarbers deal with cravings for the kinds of things we learn to cook and sub, as in Calianna's Thanksgiving example.

I used Atkins Frankenfoods to get me over the hump, and even now cravings surface. I deal with them by cooking something that hits that spot, without the damaging parts. Though it's usually more trouble than it's actually worth

Vegans miss meat. That's why they love subs, put real sandwich names up on their deli menus, talk up their new fave on their channels, and get tired of it and start all over again.

We miss treats, we make treats. They miss meat... and never, ever satisfy their body craving.

That's how they go raw and eat ten bananas a day. They're lost.
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Old Sat, Dec-16-23, 07:12
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WereBear WereBear is online now
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And I'm really, honestly, happily thrilled at the rejection of the Vegan Agenda, because vegan foods taste horrible to omnivores. Bakery and snack foods are natural for vegans to crave and they feel justified in eating as much as they want. They are people claiming to be vegan who are quite overweight, and still claim they are eating "healthy."

It's breathtaking how much delusion is now supported. Or seems to be, by the sheer weight of the propaganda they now pump out with AI.

I encourage the local library to stock the good diet books with the science in them.
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Old Sat, Dec-16-23, 12:10
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Calianna Calianna is offline
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They're really barking up the wrong tree with the fake meats. They're trying to convert meat eaters into fake meat eaters, and WB is right - they taste awful to meat eaters.

And the numbers just aren't there to support whole vegan fake meat industries purely based on those who are dedicated to a vegan diet.

If they concentrated on bean/lentil/grain/soy/vegetable dishes that tasted (relatively) good on their own, they'd do much better.

Boca Burgers and Morning Star Farms burgers have been around for decades. Why? Because for plant based burgers, they're not all that bad. They're not trying to replicate the taste of eating meat - they're providing an alternative to a ground beef burger. Same with some of the original veggie burgers made from mushrooms and chopped up vegetables - they weren't trying to look or taste like meat - they were just soy/vegetable based patties that could be served in a bun.

I don't see any reason why the vegan manufacturers can't concentrate on stews, soups, and sauces (some even part of frozen meals), along with patties and loaves that meet the principle of vegan food without trying to make it look and taste like a very bad imitation of real meat.

You can certainly make a bean and lentil loaf that would be attractive to vegans as an alternative to meat loaf.

There's nothing wrong with a chili made with beans and barley to provide contrasting textures.

Why not just call a dish vegetable stew instead of trying to make a fake meat stew sound like it's made with meat?

Why not a stew with tofu in it instead of meat?

Or scrambled tofu instead of eggs? Tofu quiche is another possibility.

All those things can be made at home, but vegans and vegetarians have busy lives like everyone else - having those foods available with the ability to just open a can or box, or frozen and ready to nuke - there has to be a market for them.

There's plenty of vegan foods that appeal to the larger market too - nothing wrong with a spaghetti sauce that doesn't have meat or meat flavoring in it - Plenty of meat eaters already buy that sort of thing and put their own meat in it if they want a meat sauce. It doesn't need to be labeled vegan, unless you just want to put a little vegan friendly sticker on it so that vegans don't need to read all the ingredients.


They've only gotten in trouble with their vegan products because they're trying to make them look, act, and taste like real meat and dairy to appeal to those who want real meat - but with the word VEGAN emblazoned on them like some kind of virtue.
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