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  #1   ^
Old Thu, Dec-05-02, 06:45
tamarian's Avatar
tamarian tamarian is offline
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Plan: Atkins/PP/BFL
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Location: Ottawa, ON
Default Fumento Upset with LC Research: Hold the Lard!

Hold the Lard!

The Atkins Diet still doesn't work.

By Michael Fumento

Issue settled. The Atkins Diet—the famous high-fat, low-carb regime that lets dieters load up on pork rinds and Scrapple as long as they avoid potatoes and Wheaties—works. The American Heart Association has been wrong all along, as has essentially the entirely American medical establishment. Not only is gorging on fat the key to becoming thin, it's heart-healthy to boot. So say the headlines:
• "High Fat, Low Carb Diet May Finally Be Getting Its Due" (CNN)
• "Fats Win Latest Round in Diet War" (Chicago Tribune)
• "Low-carb Atkins Diet Beats Low-Fat American Heart Association Plan in Head-To-Head Comparison" (CNBC)
• "High-Fat Diet Shows Promise in Study" (AP)
• "Doctors Eat Crow on Banning Celebrity Diet" (The Australian)

The public responded predictably to the pro-Atkins results of an Atkins-funded study last month. Sales of Dr. Robert Atkins' diet book skyrocketed over 900 percent on Amazon.com the day the news broke. Dr. Atkins' New Diet Revolution has now sold over 10 million copies; according to one Atkins stooge, more than 20 million people have signed on for the diet. Celebrities ranging from callipygian lovelies Jennifer Lopez and Minnie Driver to formerly porky Spice Girl Geri Halliwell to one-man body mass rollercoaster Matthew Perry have reportedly taken the Atkins plan straight to the scales.

And they've all been sold one greasy fat bill of goods.

There are two issues here. One is the effect of the Atkins diet on weight loss. The other is its effect on cholesterol and triglycerides, a group of fatty compounds that circulate in the bloodstream and are stored in the fat tissue.

In the study in question, Dr. Eric Westman of the Duke University Medical Center looked at both. He followed two groups of 60 dieters each, one on a high carbohydrate diet and one on the high-fat, low-carbohydrate Atkins diet. He reported that the Atkins group lost twice as much weight during the six-month study period as did the high-carb group. But this is both unsurprising and meaningless.

Gary Foster of the University of Pennsylvania co-authored a study conducted in virtually the same manner as Westman's. Foster, whose work will soon appear in a major medical journal, provides a simple explanation for the Atkins weight loss. The regimen "gives people a framework to eat fewer calories, since most of the choices in this culture are carbohydrate driven," he says. "Over time people eat fewer calories."

Randy Seeley of the University of Cincinnati co-authored yet another "sister study" with similar results. His explanation is the same as Foster's. Ultimately, Atkins is nothing more than a low-calorie diet in disguise.

In any event, the main issue with any diet—be it Atkins, popcorn, or jelly bean—isn't whether people can lose weight in the short-term but rather whether they can stick to the regimen and keep the pounds off not for just half a year but essentially forever. Yet completely lost in the media mania was that among the 60 Atkins dieters in the Westman group analyzed for weight loss, the dropout rate was 43 percent.

Thus almost half the Atkins cohort couldn't stay with the steak and bacon routine for even six months. By comparison, only 25 percent of the high-carb eaters dropped out.

Moreover, it's generally accepted that drop-out rates anywhere near this level completely invalidate a study because you don't know how all those drop-outs would have affected the result. Maybe those Atkins dieters were quitting not only because of carbohydrate cravings but also because they weren't losing weight or losing it fast enough to satisfy them.

Why would Westman's interpretation be so different from those of Foster and Seeley? It may help to know not only that this particular study was paid for by the Atkins Center, but that it's part of a long-term funding arrangement.

Analyses such as one published in the New England Journal of Medicine (NEJM) in May 2000 have shown that funding sources do in fact influence study results and the interpretations (or "spin" if you will) of those results. "When the boundaries between industry and academic medicine become as blurred as they are now, the business goals of industry influence the mission of medical schools in multiple ways," declared an accompanying NEJM editorial.

Westman's interpretation, based on his handful of subjects observed over a mere six months, also directly contradicts three decades of randomized controlled studies published in peer-reviewed journals. A review of over 200 of these published last year in a major medical journal concluded bluntly: "The BMIs [a surrogate measure of weight] were significantly lower for men and women on the high carbohydrate diet; the highest BMIs were noted for those on a low carbohydrate diet."

But what about the blood findings? Wasn't it a real shocker that Atkins dieters consuming heavy amounts of fat saw their HDL ("good cholesterol") levels increase by 11 percent while harmful triglycerides fell 49 percent? (LDL or "bad cholesterol" levels remained the same.)

No.

"Often just losing weight alone will cause improvement in triglyceride and cholesterol levels," the president of the American Heart Association Dr. Robert Bonow told me. Since the Atkins dieters did lose more weight than those on the high-carb diet, it only stands to reason that by comparison their blood levels would also improve more.

Says Seeley, Westman's "weight loss data look just like ours and my argument is that the weight loss accounts for the beneficial effects."

Westman told me that he doesn't believe this to be the case, because another study, in the July 2002 Journal of Nutrition, claims to have found a similar improvement on an Atkins-type diet regardless of weight loss. But the same researchers, using the same group of dieters, published another study at the same time reporting that the Atkins dieters lost an average of 7.5 pounds over a six-week period. So again, blood fat levels merely fell with body fat levels.

Ultimately this fat-fest over a single study shows nothing more than the media's amazing ability to pick out and flaunt a will o' the wisp—even to the point that one American network repeatedly used on-the-air interviews from a representative of the Atkins Institute to interpret a study paid for by the Atkins Institute!

Why? Our increasingly obese population is desperate for some magical formula to avoid the physiological law that body fat is determined by calories in and calories out. The media tried to fill the need, but ultimately failed the public. "It just makes people confused and frustrated," an exasperated Seeley said. Yes, and fatter by the day.


Michael Fumento is a Senior Fellow at the Hudson Institute in Washington, D.C. and author of The Fat of the Land (Viking, 1997). His next book, BioEvolution: How Biotechnology is Changing Our World, will be published by Encounter Books in the spring.

http://www.reason.com/hod/mf120502.shtml

----

Fumento is a lawyer with lobbyist think tank, the Hudson Institute. It's interesting to see how the focus on finance in one study should invalidate other studies, even those funded by the AHA itself. What is more interesting, is that a different approch, anti low-fat would be taken, when selling his book "Fat of the Land". This really underscores the point Gary Taube made, about leaving the health direction to be decided by lawyers! Here an article he previously wrote:

---

The Feds' fib about low-fat


Michael Fumento

Just a week ago, I sat at an outdoor cafe in Budapest watching the thin people. Scores would walk by before I would see so much as a small potbelly or a set of thick thighs. Now I'm back in the Land of the Fat, Home of the Broad. America is already the fattest nation on Earth, yet we grow wider by the year.

What has gotten into us?

There's no one explanation for the obesity epidemic, but much of it can be laid at the feet of the low-fat myth spread by the food industry, diet-book authors and — worst of all — our own trusted government health officials.

Back in 1990, a government report by the Food and Drug Administration (along with a coalition of 38 federal agencies and health organizations) instructed consumers to reduce the fat in their diets to 30 percent or less of total calories.

The report was actually aimed at lowering cholesterol levels and preventing heart disease, though, even here, it was grossly oversimplistic. After all, some types of fats are far worse for the heart than others, and fish oil actually appears beneficial.

Giving a target percentage also ignores simple math. A diet of 3,000 calories including 30 percent fat provides more fat than one of 2,000 calories including 40 percent fat.

But the real problem came when health agencies and others seized upon it as a way of reining in the nation's growing obesity problem. Get down to the 30 percent threshold and you will achieve nirvana and thinness, we were told.

And retold and retold. It's even proclaimed by every single FDA-mandated food label, where it indicates what percentage of our "daily value" the fat in the product provides.

Yet the science has always said that maintaining a healthful body weight is no more complex or magical than simply balancing calories burned vs. calories consumed, regardless of the source.

A slew of studies have looked precisely at this issue, providing subjects limited-calorie diets with varying amounts of fat, protein and carbohydrates. Most have found that persons eating a high-fat diet lost as much body fat as, or more than, those on a low-fat one.

One such, at New York's Rockefeller University, reported back in 1992, fed all subjects liquid formulas with the percentage of fat ranging from zero all the way up to 70 percent of total calories. The result? "A calorie is a calorie," said the primary researcher.

Dietary data from countries around the world also show no correlation between fat consumption and obesity levels — except that Americans get far fewer of their calories from fat than do countries where people look like stick figures compared with us. Hungarian cuisine, incidentally, is notoriously fatty.

Finally, historical U.S. consumption data show that we now get a considerably smaller percentage of our calories from fat than we did not so long ago – when we were as thin as those Hungarians.

Since 1977-78, fat as a percentage of our diets has dropped by over 17 percent, even as obesity has increased by over 25 percent. The fewer calories we've taken in from fat, the fatter we've become.

"The studies are clear," Walter Willett, chairman of the department of nutrition at the Harvard School of Public Health, told me. "As far as body fat goes, it doesn't make any difference where your calories come from."

Suddenly, this is all being treated as new. Yet it was all discussed in my 1997 book, "The Fat of the Land."

Nor should it be a surprise that this has wreaked havoc on our eating habits.

A joint Food Marketing Institute and Prevention magazine survey in 1996 found that 72 percent of those polled made decisions to buy food based on the fat content listed on the FDA's label, while only 9 percent treated calories the same way.

Spurred by the government's "Demon Fat" campaign, foodmakers began pumping out products low in fat but packed with sugar and calories. Yet controlled studies support the common-sense assumption that when told what they're eating is low in fat, people become pigs. They swap small amounts of satisfying fat for mountains of calories that leave them feeling empty.

None of this is to say the government should have no role in public health, including lifestyle issues. But early successes against contagious illnesses and smoking have lately been replaced by questionable crusades against asbestos, passive smoking and animal carcinogens.

The government's AIDS campaign, which from the beginning targeted those least at risk while largely ignoring those truly at risk, has tragic parallels to the Demon Fat campaign.

If our health officials truly want to help us, they must stick to the science. And they must never forget Hippocrates' admonition: "First, do no harm."

Michael Fumento is a senior fellow at the Hudson Institute.

http://www.washtimes.com/commentary...05-12959786.htm
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  #2   ^
Old Thu, Dec-05-02, 07:05
tamarian's Avatar
tamarian tamarian is offline
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Posts: 19,570
 
Plan: Atkins/PP/BFL
Stats: 400/223/200 Male 5 ft 11
BF:37%/17%/12%
Progress: 89%
Location: Ottawa, ON
Default

Don't have much time right now, I 'm heading to work, but I'm sure some of you will pick this peice apart

But it is obvious that many health and food businesses will go belly up, if the public starts listening to these scientific studies. So it is in their interest to start the "thank tank" machine to lobby for their business interests. Surprise!

More to follow...

Wa'il
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  #3   ^
Old Thu, Dec-05-02, 08:59
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Angeline Angeline is offline
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Plan: Atkins (loosely)
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Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Default Re: Fumento Upset with LC Research: Hold the Lard!

Quote:
He followed two groups of 60 dieters each, one on a high carbohydrate diet and one on the high-fat, low-carbohydrate Atkins diet. He reported that the Atkins group lost twice as much weight during the six-month study period as did the high-carb group. But this is both unsurprising and meaningless.

Haha...meaningless to who ??? Certainly not to the people who are loosing the weight.

Quote:

"Often just losing weight alone will cause improvement in triglyceride and cholesterol levels," the president of the American Heart Association Dr. Robert Bonow told me. Since the Atkins dieters did lose more weight than those on the high-carb diet, it only stands to reason that by comparison their blood levels would also improve more.


And that's bad because ????

What is both unsurprising and meaningless is this drivel. He has his head stuck up so far up his a*****

Last edited by Angeline : Thu, Dec-05-02 at 09:05.
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  #4   ^
Old Thu, Dec-05-02, 12:04
cre8tivgrl's Avatar
cre8tivgrl cre8tivgrl is offline
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Plan: Low carb
Stats: 20/08/00 Female 5'10"
BF:not/low/enough
Progress: 60%
Location: The great Northwest
Default

You know what they say... if you can't beat 'em, attack 'em with misinformation to confuse 'em.


Last edited by cre8tivgrl : Thu, Dec-05-02 at 12:05.
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  #5   ^
Old Thu, Dec-05-02, 18:25
Lisa N's Avatar
Lisa N Lisa N is offline
Posts: 12,028
 
Plan: Bernstein Diabetes Soluti
Stats: 260/-/145 Female 5' 3"
BF:
Progress: 63%
Location: Michigan
Default

Division of General Internal Medicine, Duke University, 2200 West Main Street, Durham, NC 27705, USA. ewestman~duke.edu

To determine the effect of a 6-month very low carbohydrate diet program on body weight and other metabolic parameters. Fifty-one overweight or obese healthy volunteers who wanted to lose weight were placed on a very low carbohydrate diet (<25 g/d), with no limit on caloric intake. They also received nutritional supplementation and recommendations about exercise, and attended group meetings at a research clinic. The outcomes were body weight, body mass index, percentage of body fat (estimated by skinfold thickness), serum chemistry and lipid values, 24-hour urine measurements, and subjective adverse effects. Forty-one (80%) of the 51 subjects attended visits through 6 months . In these subjects, the mean (+/- SD) body weight decreased 10.3% +/- 5.9% (P <0.001) from baseline to 6 months (body weight reduction of 9.0 +/- 5.3 kg and body mass index reduction of 3.2 +/- 1.9 kg/m(2)). The mean percentage of body weight that was fat decreased 2.9% +/- 3.2% from baseline to 6 months (P <0.001). The mean serum bicarbonate level decreased 2 +/- 2.4 mmol/L (P <0.001) and blood urea nitrogen level increased 2 +/- 4 mg/dL (P <0.001). Serum total cholesterol level decreased 11 +/- 26 mg/dL (P = 0.006), low-density lipoprotein cholesterol level decreased 10 +/- 25 mg/dL (P = 0.01), triglyceride level decreased 56 +/- 45 mg/dL (P <0.001), high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol level increased 10 +/- 8 mg/dL (P <0.001), and the cholesterol/HDL cholesterol ratio decreased 0.9 +/- 0.6 units (P <0.001). There were no serious adverse effects, but the possibility of adverse effects in the 10 subjects who did not adhere to the program cannot be eliminated. A very low carbohydrate diet program led to sustained weight loss during a 6-month period. Further controlled research is warranted.



Where on earth is he getting his numbers from? 80% of the participants on low carb stuck with it, not 57%. I believe the dropout rate for the low fat group was closer to 43%.

Let me see if I've got this right. When he was trying to sell his book, low fat was out. Now that the book has lost popularity, low fat is the way to go again? Can we say two-faced?
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  #6   ^
Old Thu, Dec-05-02, 19:49
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PoofieD PoofieD is offline
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Plan: Schwarzbein Principle
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Default

Quote:
Let me see if I've got this right. When he was trying to sell his book, low fat was out. Now that the book has lost popularity, low fat is the way to go again? Can we say two-faced?


Isn't two faced and Lawyer the same thing??
:-)
What I am really glad about in america..is that all he can do is rant.. we will still do what we need for ourselves!
Poofie!
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  #7   ^
Old Thu, Dec-05-02, 21:27
Lisa N's Avatar
Lisa N Lisa N is offline
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Plan: Bernstein Diabetes Soluti
Stats: 260/-/145 Female 5' 3"
BF:
Progress: 63%
Location: Michigan
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by PoofieD
Isn't two faced and Lawyer the same thing??
:-)


LOL...that reminded me of the old joke: What's the difference between a catfish and a lawyer? One is a scum sucking bottom-feeder and other is a fish.
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  #8   ^
Old Thu, Dec-05-02, 22:53
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atlee atlee is offline
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Plan: SPII IS/BOAG
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Location: Jackson, MS
Default Fumento's numbers

I emailed Fumento about this article, and got a prompt reply back. Here's what he says about the dropout percentages:

Quote:
You should be confused. This was an earlier stage of the study, so early in
fact that there was no control group. Westman added in more patients in the
Atkins group and added the control group. EACH was followed for six months;
it's not like the trial began Jan. 1 and ended June 30th. The drop-out data
is in the abstract presented at the AHA conference and was confirmed to me
by Dr. Westman personally.


Which makes a little more sense.

The thing that really irks me about all these articles is that they harp about the study's being funded by the Atkins Center. First of all, it's really common -- Westman approached Atkins for a grant after having decided to do the study, and this is pretty much standard operating procedure in the medical world. Second, making vague accusations of the study's being influenced by its funding is just so much ad-hominem nonsense. If you think the study methodology is bad, or that the conclusions drawn aren't supported by the data, criticize that specificially instead of just making allegations! This is supposed to be science, right?
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  #9   ^
Old Fri, Dec-06-02, 00:40
Omega Omega is offline
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Default Still confused about dropout rates

According to this report on the Westman study...

Quote:
The weight loss over six months was 13.8 percent for LC (n=36) and 8.8 percent for LF (n=27).


Doesn't "n" equal the number of subjects measured? If I'm correct, that would mean that 36/60 (60%) of the LCers were still on the diet at 6 months, and that 27/60 (45%) of the LFers were still on the diet at 6 months.

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  #10   ^
Old Fri, Dec-06-02, 06:58
tamarian's Avatar
tamarian tamarian is offline
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Posts: 19,570
 
Plan: Atkins/PP/BFL
Stats: 400/223/200 Male 5 ft 11
BF:37%/17%/12%
Progress: 89%
Location: Ottawa, ON
Default

Quote:
I emailed Fumento about this article, and got a prompt reply back. Here's what he says about the dropout percentages:

Quote:
You should be confused. This was an earlier stage of the study, so early in
fact that there was no control group. Westman added in more patients in the
Atkins group and added the control group. EACH was followed for six months;
it's not like the trial began Jan. 1 and ended June 30th. The drop-out data
is in the abstract presented at the AHA conference and was confirmed to me
by Dr. Westman personally.


Which makes a little more sense.


Maybe he's right about the drop out rate in that study, but there are other studies showing it's easiet to stick to low-carb diets than low-calorie low-fat diets.

But the guy just doesn't make any sense, and sounds like a highly paid lawyer, defending a confessed murderrer

If you summarize the arguments in his article, filtering out his circular thinking and mind-fog, here's what his logic boils down to:

Atkins and low-carb diet is bad due to the following:
1. You only lose twice as much as other starvation diets.
2. You only improve your blood cholesterol levels on Atkins because you lose a lot of weight on it.
3. Followers eat less on it, since they lose cravings, and tend to not over eat.
4. There are many other studies showing the same success, but one study was funded by Atkins, who is popular and sold many books!

Therefore, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, it's just plain bad, bad, really bad for you, and I ask you to vendicate my clients, the low-fat and low-calorie myths.


Wa'il
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  #11   ^
Old Fri, Dec-06-02, 11:47
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Sheldon Sheldon is offline
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Plan: Atkins
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BF:21.1%/18.5%/18.5%
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Location: Conway, AR
Default

Fumento doesn't seem to be concerned that much of the anti-fat and anti-cholesterol research is funded by interested parties. The makers of Wesson oil were involved in the early studies that fueled the low-fat bandwagon.

When Atkins doesn't fund research he's damned. When he does, he is also damned. What does that tell you?

If weight loss alone can "improve" one's blood lipids, even while one is on a high-fat diet, then what's the fuss about? Diet must not be the problem!

Fumento seems ignorant of the substantial cholesterol revisionism that is going on. The fact is, the establishment's own studies do not confirm the cholesterol-heart disease hypothesis. For exampe, in the famous Framingham Study, high cholesterol was not a risk factor in men over 47--quite the opposite in fact. The lower the cholesterol, the greater the risk of death. Get more information here and here .

Sheldon
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  #12   ^
Old Fri, Dec-06-02, 12:01
Sheldon's Avatar
Sheldon Sheldon is offline
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Plan: Atkins
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BF:21.1%/18.5%/18.5%
Progress: 100%
Location: Conway, AR
Default Re: Fumento Upset with LC Research: Hold the Lard!

Quote:
Originally posted by tamarian
"The studies are clear," Walter Willett, chairman of the department of nutrition at the Harvard School of Public Health, told me. "As far as body fat goes, it doesn't make any difference where your calories come from."


Then why, given an equal number of calories, do people on low-carb diets consistently lose more weight than people on high-carb diets?

Sheldon

Last edited by Sheldon : Fri, Dec-06-02 at 12:03.
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  #13   ^
Old Fri, Dec-06-02, 14:03
Sheldon's Avatar
Sheldon Sheldon is offline
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Plan: Atkins
Stats: 174/163/163 Male 5 feet 7 inches
BF:21.1%/18.5%/18.5%
Progress: 100%
Location: Conway, AR
Default

I also wrote to Fumento. Here is the exchange. Note the evasions and smokescreens, as well as the pleasing tone.

Sheldon

Michael--

When years went by without an Atkins-funded study, Dean Ornish and others blasted him for not doing studies. Now that he has funded one, he's blasted for doing it. Do you get the feeling he can't win? It's the establishment that's suspect here, and I'm surprised you don't see it.

Besides, what about the U of Cincinnati study, funded by the AHA, and the U Conn study, which has similar results as the Atkins study for weight loss and lipids?

Explaining the lipid "improvement" (I ignore here the severe problems with the cholesterol-heart-disease hypothesis, see the separate work by Uffe Ravnskov and Malcolm Kendrick) can't be explained away by weight loss. If the Atkins folks are eating bacon, steaks, eggs, and cheese in abundance, one should not expect weight loss to cancel out the allegedly bad effects of all that fat and cholesterol. There is more going on.

Time is showing that it's the low-fat crowd who's engaged in junk
science. Some people have known at least as early as 1863 (through William Banting) that low-carb is the way to health and weight loss. Stefansson's year-long meat-only diet in 1928 under medical supervision at Bellevue Hospital in New York showed the same thing.

Fat doesn't make you fat. Carbs-sugar-and-insulin do.

Regards,
Sheldon

Reply:

I didn't say that the study was wrong because Atkins funded it. After indicating WHY it was wrongly INTEPRETED, I offered as a possible explanation as to why that might be.

I quoted the co-author of that Cincinnati study, Randy Seeley, giving the explanation that it was the weight-loss that did it. Why do you criticize articles you haven't bothered to carefully read? I also quoted the co-author of another sister study providing the same explanation.

"If the Atkins folks are eating bacon, steaks, eggs, and cheese in abundance, one should not expect weight loss to cancel out the allegedly bad effects of all that fat and cholesterol."

Logically, that is incorrect. Whatever blood marker increases from these saturated fats could be more than canceled out by the weight loss. Factually, it is also incorrect. We have no idea of what fats those people ate. You assume it was entirely saturated. Yet we know for a fact they were given flaxseed and fish oil supplements, which lower blood, marker levels. While it's hardly likely, for all you know every one of those Atkins dieters ate nothing but fish and heart-healthy canola oil as the fat portion of their diet.

Banting, whose letter came out in 1872, obviously had nothing more than alleged empirical evidence to support his thesis. On the other hand, there is a mass (over 200 studies) of studies printed in peer-reviewed medical journals indicating that high-carb, high-fiber diets tend to bring about more weight loss. Obviously that's not a ticket to drink gallons of soda and eat candy all day long.

Your final statement is completely wrong, even by Atkins's account. He says fat can make you fat, but only in the presence of a high amount of carbs. Many studies have shown that dietary fat is converted slight MORE efficiently into body fat than carbohydrates, though the difference is so small as to be negligible. And finally, insulin is absolutely necessary to sustain life. Ask any diabetic. But go ahead and have your pancreas removed and you WILL lose weight - as you decay in the grave.

Sincerely,

Michael Fumento
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  #14   ^
Old Fri, Dec-06-02, 14:09
Sheldon's Avatar
Sheldon Sheldon is offline
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Plan: Atkins
Stats: 174/163/163 Male 5 feet 7 inches
BF:21.1%/18.5%/18.5%
Progress: 100%
Location: Conway, AR
Default My response to his response

"And finally, insulin is absolutely necessary to sustain life. Ask any diabetic. But go ahead and have your pancreas removed and you WILL lose weight - as you decay in the grave."

Can you name me one low-carb advocate who disagrees with this? Cheap debating tactic, Michael.

Sheldon

Last edited by Sheldon : Fri, Dec-06-02 at 14:15.
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  #15   ^
Old Fri, Dec-06-02, 16:26
tamarian's Avatar
tamarian tamarian is offline
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Plan: Atkins/PP/BFL
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Progress: 89%
Location: Ottawa, ON
Default Re: My response to his response

Quote:
Originally posted by Sheldon
"And finally, insulin is absolutely necessary to sustain life. Ask any diabetic. But go ahead and have your pancreas removed and you WILL lose weight - as you decay in the grave."

Can you name me one low-carb advocate who disagrees with this? Cheap debating tactic, Michael.

Sheldon


I did some search on Fumento on Google, and realised his tactics are beyond cheap.

But I admire you and Atlee for giving him the benefit of the doubt and spending the time to correspond with him.

Wa'il
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