This is where I ask you to provide the evidence that you claim exists.

Haven't you read all the posts in this thread? Aren't there plenty of people who said they gained weight on a low-carb diet? If this isn't enough, you can find other stories in the support forums. I imagine that many of them might have been on low-calorie diets before, had low metabolism or were trying to maintain an unnaturally low weight, but still they gained weight. At least you should keep a skeptical attitude and consider it a possibility. I'm sure most people lose weight, not gain, on low-carb diets.

And as I said before, if you want definitive proof, measure your own body fat for a year and see how it rises and falls.

Yes but if you read Martin's posts you'll see that he wasn't denying that people gain weight on LC, just that when they do, it has nothing to do with an excess of food, as weight gain is ultimately controlled by hormones.

And hormones are influenced by diet. Isn't that why carbs make us fat?

Definitely, but fat has no ability to effect insulin and insulin is raised by protein, but so is glucogen. In any case it is very hard to eat too much protein, most diet studies result with participants consuming 15-20% of cals as protein after a period of time no matter what the value recommended in the diet, so the excess protein point is moot for most people.

Casein might contribute to hyperinsulemia in some people, but not all.

That's the problem with nutritional science, it relies on generalities. But generally speaking, obesity is caused by hyperinsulemia and hyperinsulemia is caused by excessive carbohydrate.

Actually fat raises insulin a little too. The fatty acids don't, but the glycerol part does, as it can be converted to glucose.

I know, but some people are very insulin resistant. They also might have sluggish tyroids or slow metabolisms, and they might have been starving themselves on low-calorie diets. Martin had written that it's impossible to gain weight on such a diet because the mechanism doesn't exist, but it does. I don't think it's common to gain weight on a low-carb diet, just the opposite in fact, but there are some stories of people gaining weight on Atkins Induction, for example. I have no reason to assume they are lying.

The original post is clear. We're not talking about gaining weight, we're talking about growing fat. The same kind of growing fat that happens when we eat carbohydrate. The premise is ASP. Yet there is no evidence that ASP alone can produce obesity. Furthermore, the evidence that does exist contradicts the premise. All the original arguments have been addressed. If you have evidence that it is possible to grow fat by overeating fat, present it.

Nope, it's irrelevent, because it's not enough for the condition to exist only in books and people who are near death. Since my insulin is never that low (and never will be, if I can help it), ASP cannot be discounted as a factor. Exercise does seem to be helping.

I've only come into this conversation because you said the mechanism needed to gain fat from a low-carb diet doesn't exist, and I disagreed with you. I'm just talking about gaining weight. The mechanism exists, and people have gained weight on low-carb diets. Now can thin people become obese on a normal low-carb diet where they eat as much as they want? I don't think so, not because of the diet anyway. What if we force them to eat huge amounts of protein and fat? Then yes, but no one I know has tried it.

Suddenly after having read the above, I have this nagging feeling that I'm now arguing with a fool. However, out of the goodness of my heart, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt just this once.

So the evidence exists, you just prefer to ignore it. I see.

Near death is far from the truth. I've argued this in the past. I found the evidence and presented it in another thread. If you deemed it useful, you too could find the same evidence. Diabetics type 1 live years before dying according to how old they are at the time of diagnosis and according to how much carbohydrate they continue to eat. The shortest time they live is something like 2 years and the longest is about 8 years. That's time enough to grow fat. Yet they don't. Unless they inject insulin.

Taubes addresses this in GCBC. To summarize, it's impossible to eat enough fat meat to grow fat, if grow fat we can. It's impossible to test so the hypothesis remains untested and might as well be considered refuted. There is evidence that supports the opposite further supporting the refutation.

A key element required to produce obesity is chronically elevated insulin. This is just impossible when we eat no carbohydrate. Unless, of course, there is an underlying pathology. But then it's still nothing to do with diet.

Sure, excess insulin is bad. That's why every member of these forums avoids eating too much carb. Healthy people should keep a healthy weight on a healthy diet, I agree, but, as you said, there might be an underlying pathology. And there often is. I think this is what Wyvrn is trying to say. Many people have a damaged metabolism from years of being on an unhealthy diet and they can gain fat or at least remain obese even on the strictest low-carb diet. I don't think anyone is blaming the diet, just pointing out it doesn't always solve the problem, because it can't fix what's broken.

Your diabetics that are still alive without insulin years later are still producing insulin. Probably LADAs, rather than classic T1s. Diabetes isn't a diagnosis of pancreatic failure, it's a diagnosis of high blood sugar which can indicate pancreatic insufficiency. Complete failure can take years from diagnosis.

When you get close to that point, you start taking insulin, or you die.

Taubes would be appalled to hear of someone attributing this statement to him.

I can't agree with you there Martin. If a person overeats protein there can be excess sugar from gluconeogenesis. (or am i starting to repeat this thread? even I kind of lost the plot) This is partly why Groves and Kwasniewski advocate limits on the protein, I believe.

In that case there can be chronically elevated insulin, from diet, with still almost no carb.

Also, there is "where there is smoke there is fire"-type evidence that people acclimated to intense sweet, shoot out insulin too, even with non-nutritive sweeteners. (speaking of which, I wonder how heavy Jimmy Moore is now; just guessing from what he's shared, he's a person who manages to get an insulin tummy even eating a low percent of carb - but maybe too high for him, I dunno)