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  #91   ^
Old Mon, Apr-27-09, 15:28
DorianJ's Avatar
DorianJ DorianJ is offline
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Posts: 331
 
Plan: Moderate Protein Atkins
Stats: 175/160/165 Male 175
BF:
Progress: 150%
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Ketosis is less protein sparing than an high carb diet. Lyle McDonald which is an expert on ketosis explains that proteins are always converted to glucose but more so in a ketogenic diet. After all the body can't use exclusively ketone bodies and need direct glucose which almost never comes from the glycerol part of fatty acids. So not only an excess of proteins is converted to glucose but also a low amout of proteins is converted to glucose, which is why it takes more protein (on studies) to maintain nitrogen balance when carbohydrates are severely restricted.

An under-appreciated fact of liver and protein metabolism is that over half of all ingested amino acids are broken down in the liver in the first place. A good portion of those can be used to make glucose and this is especially true when carbohydrates are restricted.

Bodybuilders have typically used this approach while dieting, jacking up protein in hopes that it will limit muscle loss. Unfortunately, this is only successful when protein intake is insufficient in the first place. The breakdown of muscle protein is as much hormonally controlled by low insulin, falling testosterone, high cortisol and catecholamines as by nutrient availability. All of the protein in the world won't help when your hormones are putting your body in an inherently catabolic state.

However, there is an alternate way to limit the use of body protein when carbohydrates are being severely restricted. Early research into the topic of starvation and low-carbohydrate dieting found that as few as 15 grams of carbohydrates per day can limit nitrogen loss in the body. And raising carbohydrate intake to 50 grams per day severely limits the need for the body to use amino acids for gluoconeogenesis Not only will it maintain blood glucose and insulin at a slightly higher level (thus inhibiting cortisol release), it directly provides glucose for the brain, limiting the need to break down protein in the first place.
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  #92   ^
Old Mon, Apr-27-09, 15:37
Citruskiss Citruskiss is offline
I've decided
Posts: 16,864
 
Plan: LC
Stats: 235/137.6/130 Female 5' 5"
BF:haven't a clue
Progress: 93%
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Dorian - that was really useful information - thank you
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  #93   ^
Old Mon, Apr-27-09, 16:28
Valtor's Avatar
Valtor Valtor is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 2,036
 
Plan: VLC 4 days a week
Stats: 337/258/200 Male 6' 1"
BF:
Progress: 58%
Location: Québec, Canada
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Thank you Dorian, much appreciated.

My current net carb intake is about 40g/d, so I guess I'm ok

Patrick
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  #94   ^
Old Mon, Apr-27-09, 17:29
M Levac M Levac is offline
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Posts: 6,498
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DorianJ
Ketosis is less protein sparing than an high carb diet.

That is misleading and incorrect. Didn't you say that an exclusive protein diet is catabolic? Such a diet is not ketogenic.
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  #95   ^
Old Mon, Apr-27-09, 17:40
M Levac M Levac is offline
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Posts: 6,498
 
Plan: VLC, mostly meat
Stats: 202/200/165 Male 5' 7"
BF:
Progress: 5%
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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The survival argument. Ketosis is protein sparing. It must be so otherwise famine would kill us quickly.

The liver argument. Protein causes insulin to rise. When insulin rises, the liver stops gluconeogenesis.

The all protein argument. An all protein diet (that contains no fat nor carbs), is catabolic.

The insulin resistance argument. A high carb diet causes insulin resistance. Insulin resistance would prevent cells from taking in amino acids since insulin is required for this. Thus, this diet is also catabolic.

The cortisol argument. Cortisol counteracts insulin. However, it does so in proportion, i.e. the more insulin we secrete, the more cortisol we secrete to compensate. This occurs with all other hormones as well.
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  #96   ^
Old Wed, Apr-29-09, 02:20
cycomiko cycomiko is offline
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Posts: 26
 
Plan: Atkins
Stats: 253/253/220 Male 183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Levac
That is misleading and incorrect. Didn't you say that an exclusive protein diet is catabolic? Such a diet is not ketogenic.


You are misleading, and incorrect.
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  #97   ^
Old Wed, Apr-29-09, 06:52
Scarlet's Avatar
Scarlet Scarlet is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 6,452
 
Plan: Gluten free wholefoods
Stats: 173/145/147 Female 5"4.5 inches
BF:37/?/25
Progress: 108%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Levac
The cortisol argument. Cortisol counteracts insulin. However, it does so in proportion, i.e. the more insulin we secrete, the more cortisol we secrete to compensate. This occurs with all other hormones as well.


What is the cortisol argument? That high insulin messes with cortisol?
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  #98   ^
Old Wed, Apr-29-09, 08:18
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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fat/lean weight loss ratio (Men's health Adam Campbell blog

I think I'm willing to retain nitrogen at a slower rate if I get to lose the fat at a faster rate at the same time.
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  #99   ^
Old Wed, Apr-29-09, 08:33
LOOPS's Avatar
LOOPS LOOPS is offline
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Posts: 3,225
 
Plan: LCHF
Stats: 74/76/67 Female 5ft 6.5 inches
BF:29/31/25
Progress: -29%
Location: LA SERENA, CHILE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Levac
Yes, the details are complex. And I barely know anything about it. I was making the point that protein is not used to produce glucose on ZC because it is wasteful, etc. If it was, then ketosis would not be as protein-saving as we claim it to be.


Indeed, I have seen at least one case where a lot of muscle was lost along with fat on ZC. I won't name that person as I don't have their permission - but yes, they appeared to become emaciated - something that doesn't happen when muscle is retained. However as far as I can tell they were not eating 'enough' fat - something I think prevents muscle loss on ZC.

Another point is that ketogenic diets to treat epilepsy are deliberately low-protein as well as low-carb. I wonder why this would be so if protein's only function is for building purposes. If it does not interfere with ketosis/ketone production then why control it?
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  #100   ^
Old Wed, Apr-29-09, 08:49
lil' annie lil' annie is offline
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Posts: 1,276
 
Plan: quasi paleo + starch
Stats: 153/148/118 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 14%
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOOPS

....Another point is that ketogenic diets to treat epilepsy are deliberately low-protein as well as low-carb. I wonder why this would be so if protein's only function is for building purposes. If it does not interfere with ketosis/ketone production then why control it?



I'd like to find out about ketogenic diets for epilepsy - in layman's terms.

I spent a few hours one day reading about these medically prescribed diets and was shocked to read that in order to successfully maintain the ketogenic state, that the child must only drink 80% of the water it actually needs.

Inotherwords, one must be DE-hydrated to be in a clinical ketogenic state.

VERY interesting information, and I have NO idea why the offcial Atkins website lectures about drinking so very much water, each & every single second of every day.
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  #101   ^
Old Wed, Apr-29-09, 08:54
LOOPS's Avatar
LOOPS LOOPS is offline
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Posts: 3,225
 
Plan: LCHF
Stats: 74/76/67 Female 5ft 6.5 inches
BF:29/31/25
Progress: -29%
Location: LA SERENA, CHILE
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I wish I had Lyle's book - amazon always seems to be out of stock and it is an EXPENSIVE book.
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  #102   ^
Old Wed, Apr-29-09, 09:15
lil' annie lil' annie is offline
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Posts: 1,276
 
Plan: quasi paleo + starch
Stats: 153/148/118 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 14%
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Ketogenic Diet for treatment of seizures

http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cach...e=UTF-8&strip=1


Quote:


Going On the Ketogenic Diet

To begin the ketogenic diet, a child must be admitted to the hospital. There, we closely monitor the child's blood sugars, vital signs and ketones. Usually, the diet works best when a child is moderately dehydrated. Fluid requirements usually are 80 percent of the amount recommended for typical hydration.

We use a ratio to describe the ketogenic diet's requirements for each child. The ratio compares the number of calories from fat to the number of calories from protein and carbohydrates, combined.

For most children, the diet's ratio is 4:1.

That means the child takes in 4 times as many calories from fat as calories from protein and carbohydrates.

http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cach...e=UTF-8&strip=1






A Talk with Dr. John Freeman: The Ketogenic Diet


NEUROLOGY READING ROOM Neurological Diseases Homepage Fall 2003
Volume 16, Number 2
A Talk with John Freeman:
Tending the Flame


http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cach...e=UTF-8&strip=1

Quote:


Freeman's route with the ketogenic diet calls to mind Gandhi's comment: First they ignore you; then they laugh at you; then they fight you; then you win.

Whipping cream. Bacon. A lot of food that feels like sin is in the ketogenic diet, an approach to intractable epilepsy that was once embraced, then scoffed at. Now it's newly accepted again, thanks in no small part to efforts by pediatric neurologist John Freeman, M.D., and a dedicated team. In the 1920s, when bromides and phenobarbital led approaches to epilepsy, the alternative-a high-fat, very low-carbohydrate and protein regimen-gave about a third of child patients excellent to complete control of their seizures. The rest on "the ketogenic" had at least 50 percent control or better. In part because the diet was so unusual-it mimics seizure-quelling metabolic changes that come, oddly enough, after days of fasting-and in part because nobody had a clue to how it worked, the ketogenic route seemed magical.

"All that, for the most part, hasn't changed," says Freeman. Today, parents of the nearly 500 children he and his team have treated still shake their heads that such an approach can work. "And what we don't know about the diet still exceeds what we do," Freeman says.

What's different, however, is that he and colleagues Patti Vining, M.D., and Eric Kossoff, M.D., have worn down naysayers-and there've been some-with sound research.

They've shown, for example, that diet advantages extend to teenagers, that children's growth is only mildly slowed and that side effects like kidney stones are manageable.

They've correlated blood levels of one ketone body -a metabolic byproduct- with efficacy in stopping seizures and have published protocols on keeping patients on the dietary straight and narrow.

Q. There's no denying the obvious about the ketogenic diet: it's loaded with fat.

A. That's true. The version we use is 90 percent fat, with 4 to 8 grams of carbohydrate and 1 gram per kilogram weight of protein daily. Most people's first reaction is "yuk." Yes, patients drink heavy cream. But the diet's palatable: Mushroom omelets with bacon. Broccoli with cheese. There's variety.

Q. And you certainly need the fat...

A. because it gives the desired effect. Normally, fat is burned to carbon dioxide and water. But that's in the presence of carbohydrate. Without the Mars bars, fat's incompletely oxidized. Then blood levels of ketones-specifically beta-hydroxybutyric acid (HBA) and acetone-begin to rise. We think ketones are largely responsible for the diet's effects. One of our studies shows seizure rates drop as levels of HBA rise.

Q. How would anyone think up such a diet for epilepsy?

A. What you're doing is mimicking the effect of starvation. In the 1920s, people discovered that fasting 10 to 20 days might control seizures for weeks or even years. The fellow who developed the ketogenic diet -not me- knew that rigorous fasting prompts ketosis. In 1922, after trying the diet on patients, he saw their seizures decrease rapidly.

Q. But then the diet went out of favor?

A. Yes. In 1938, Houston Merritt discovered Dilantin, a wonderful anticonvulsant but a setback to our understanding the ketogenic diet and epilepsy in general. It's easier to take a pill than to fast for 18 to 25 days and stick to a diet. So most people switched. Only a few places like Hopkins continued the diet for small numbers of patients.

Q. Yet, there's been a resurgence of interest?

A. There has. In 1993, a Hollywood producer, Jim Abrahams, called me. His young son Charlie had suffered thousands of seizures. He'd been through all the medications, had seen five different pediatric neurologists, had had a fruitless surgery and still lived with hundreds of seizures a day. Then Jim came across a chapter on the ketogenic diet in a library book. He called us; we put Charlie on the diet. The boy's seizures were completely controlled.

Jim was outraged that nobody'd informed him of the diet! So he began to publicize it. Then came The Deluge. After Charlie's story appeared on "Dateline," we got 5,000 phone calls. Now, years later, interest is still steady.
There've always been patients with uncontrollable seizures. Their desperation is real and the diet offers a valid option.

Q. How's the diet sit with most clinicians?

A. When we started publishing studies in 1996, nobody believed us. When we held a press conference after our first multicenter trial, the president of the American Epilepsy Society stood up and said, "it's never been studied in a blinded fashion." That really stuck in my craw. So we've steadily ticked off studies, all of which support the diet's efficacy and safety when done properly. And we've just finished the double-blind, crossover study and are analyzing data.

Many epileptologists don't use the diet. They believe it works-our studies show-but they lack staff. The secret to the ketogenic diet is the dietitian. There's a lot of interaction with the dietitian, a lot of education because the diet's not easy. Actually, it takes a team, and we have an excellent one.

Q. Why don't you see adults on the diet?

A. A good question. As far as we know, no biology lies behind its not working for them. At the least, it might help adults leave or lower medications. But I'm a pediatric neurologist.

Q. You say the diet may have other uses?

A. Possibly. We know ketones preserve heart muscle up to a point after heart attack, probably because an oxygen and glucose-starved heart can use them as an alternate energy source. Would a keto diet be helpful? What about strokes? The brain can metabolize ketones. Would it help stroke victims to go on a short keto diet?

Q. And the future for epilepsy patients?

A. Sooner or later, we'll understand how the diet works. Why, for example, does the diet control seizures in some children who've failed six drugs-not only while they're on it, but apparently forever after they've stopped?

Something has fundamentally changed epilepsy's "on" switch. We hope the diet will lead us to that switch, and to a therapy that doesn't involve whipping cream.
~
Johns Hopkins School of Medicine
Johns Hopkins University

http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cach...e=UTF-8&strip=1


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  #103   ^
Old Wed, Apr-29-09, 09:39
Valtor's Avatar
Valtor Valtor is offline
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Posts: 2,036
 
Plan: VLC 4 days a week
Stats: 337/258/200 Male 6' 1"
BF:
Progress: 58%
Location: Québec, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teaser
fat/lean weight loss ratio (Men's health Adam Campbell blog

I think I'm willing to retain nitrogen at a slower rate if I get to lose the fat at a faster rate at the same time.

The whole TNT Diet book is available free on google books.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=7H6...&hl=en#PPA48,M1

Patrick
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  #104   ^
Old Wed, Apr-29-09, 11:28
teaser's Avatar
teaser teaser is offline
Senior Member
Posts: 15,075
 
Plan: mostly milkfat
Stats: 190/152.4/154 Male 67inches
BF:
Progress: 104%
Location: Ontario
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The only thing I didn't like about the TNT diet was the weekend carb-ups. I either forgot to do them, or I forgot to stop.
I'm a little paranoid about the amount of carbs on the Optimal diet. I've upped my fat way up, without upping the carbs much. I feel much better working out now, springier.

Quote:
Little Annie said; VERY interesting information, and I have NO idea why the offcial Atkins website lectures about drinking so very much water, each & every single second of every day.


I think Atkins was hoping we'd waste ketones, and lose more fat, where in epilepsy they wanted those ketones to be put to work in place of glucose.
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  #105   ^
Old Wed, Apr-29-09, 12:46
lil' annie lil' annie is offline
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Posts: 1,276
 
Plan: quasi paleo + starch
Stats: 153/148/118 Female 5'4"
BF:
Progress: 14%
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I don't see how you'd have any ketones to "waste," if you're drinking so many fluids that you can't possibly be in a state of ketosis to begin with.
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