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  #61   ^
Old Sun, Sep-11-05, 02:21
watcher16 watcher16 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zajack
It's just as silly to completely ignore experience as it is to completely ignore science.


That's a nice one!
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  #62   ^
Old Sun, Sep-11-05, 02:47
watcher16 watcher16 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwikdriver
I have looked and looked and looked, challenged, debated, and found no scientific evidence that demonstrates the existence of this "starvation mode" as it is usually defined. None, zero, zilch, nada, null set, not one iota...... So many holes in this whole "starvation mode" thing, no scientific evidence to support it, yet people talk about it as if it's a fact, plan their weightloss regimen around it. Better them than me, I suppose.


He Kwik, you are a bit to quick for the internet?

It took me 2 seconds to get this:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...4378&query_hl=2

which tells me the term "starvation mode" is even used in medical publications, now how hard can it be to look any further??

Quote:

Strategies for the delivery of leptin to the CNS.

Banks WA, Lebel CR.

Department of Internal Medicine, GRECC, Veterans Affairs Medical Center, St Louis, MO, USA. bankswa~slu.edu

Leptin is the major regulator of body fat. It is a 16 kD protein released by fat cells into the blood and crosses the blood-brain barrier (BBB) to interact with its receptors at the arcuate nucleus to affect feeding, thermogenesis, and other functions. Within normal and obese body weight ranges, serum and cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) levels of leptin directly correlate with body mass index and adiposity. In animals, leptin at high levels exerts effects on appetite and at low levels informs the brain when fat reserves are adequate to switch behavioral, endocrine, and immune functions from starvation mode. Leptin offers a unique therapeutic opportunity for conditions related to body weight control, such as reversal of obesity and anorexia, and as an indirect treatment for diseases related to being over- or under-weight, such as insulin resistant diabetes and the endocrine changes accompanying starvation. In humans and in many rodent models, obesity may be a consequence of leptin resistance. More specifically, resistance likely results from an impaired transport of leptin across the BBB. Peripheral administration of native leptin results in weight reduction in moderately obese individuals and weight loss and reversal of insulin resistance and dyslipidemia in individuals with low leptin levels. The peripheral pharmacokinetic and BBB transport characteristics of native leptin suggests strategies for improving the therapeutic profile of leptin. These strategies include the development of longer lasting and more permeable analogs, development of antagonists, enhancing the activity of the leptin transporter, and delivering leptin by intrathecal administration.

Publication Types:
  • Review
  • Review, Tutorial
PMID: 12164378 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Last edited by watcher16 : Sun, Sep-11-05 at 02:59.
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  #63   ^
Old Sun, Sep-11-05, 02:56
watcher16 watcher16 is offline
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Plan: Warrior LC
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I quit this search, this is plain ridiculous. There is plenty of info on "starvation mode". Based on the posts here I assumed is was a bb term, derived from medical complexer vocabulair.

Is google not known to some or what?

http://www.netwellness.com/question.cfm/28515.htm

Quote:

Obesity and Weight Management

starvation mode

12/16/2003 01:07PM


Question:


Hi, I`m a RD. Have a client that is in the starvation mode. Know your are supposed to not change amount of calories consumed but help them to eat differently. Not sure what this means. Not had a client like this in past. Also, know it will take ~ 6 months for this client regain an appetite. Client states not hungry. I`m out in an area with not a lot of access to information. Hope you can help me to help them. God Bless





Answer:




Thank you for your question. Many people think that starving themselves will lead to fast weight loss. A starvation diet does not mean the absence of food. It means cutting the total caloric intake to less than 50% of what the body requires. The body responds by using its own reserves to provide energy, and these reserves are not just the body`s extra fat. Initially, glycogen stores are broken down for energy. Glycogen is the storage form of carbohydrate in our body. There is little glycogen available so this energy source is depleted during the first hours of starvation. When glycogen is used, water is released which is noticed as a drop in weight on the scale. These labile stores are quickly replenished when feeding is resumed which is noticed by an increase in weight.



The individual`s initial weight when starting a starvation diet will dictate to what extent fat is lost. Those individuals who are not obese (Body Mass Index (BMI) < 30) will tend to lose their lean body mass more easily and quickly than those who are obese (BMI > 30). It is dangerous for these smaller individuals to go on a starvation diet because the lean mass that is lost may come from organs such as the heart. In the 1970`s there were several deaths resulting from starvation-type diets. Death is a rare side effect, though.

The more common problem resulting from starvation-type diets is the resultant weight regain. Weight is typically regained because there has not been a change in the lifestyle that led to the original weight gain. When the starvation diet is ended, the individual returns to the same old habits. The scale will indicate the weight regain, but it will not identify the composition of the added weight. When weight is regained, it is fat. When fat replaces the muscle mass that was lost during starvation, the metabolic rate (the number of calories needed to maintain the current weight) is decreased. The frustrated individual typically initiates another starvation-type diet only to continue this cycle.

To help an individual break this cycle, begin with a diet history, and help the client make some small changes. The goal should be 4 - 6 small meals/snacks that result in a balanced intake. Also get the patient started exercising. Weight training will be important for rebuilding the lost muscle mass. Increasing muscle mass and increasing aerobic exercise will help increase the appetite appropriately. Don`t forget to help the client identify a realistic weight loss goal. That goal should never exceed 10% of initial weight in a six-month period. After six months, the client should try to maintain the loss for a few months before considering further weight loss.









Response by:

Shirley A. Kindrick, Ph.D.
Team Leader
Comprehensive Weight Management Program
Center for Wellness and Prevention
The Ohio State University Medical Center
The Ohio State University




Last edited by watcher16 : Sun, Sep-11-05 at 03:04.
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  #64   ^
Old Sun, Sep-11-05, 03:11
watcher16 watcher16 is offline
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Plan: Warrior LC
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(technical trouble with getting a reply posted)

Quote:

What Are Basal & Resting Metabolic Rates (RMR)?



These two terms are used interchangeably, although they are not technically the same. Resting metabolic rate is really what most lay people mean when they say basal metabolic rate, and I talk here only about resting metabolic rate (RMR). Basal metabolic rate is a precise calculation with a precise definition; RMR is close enough for practical purposes.

Your metabolic rate = your resting metabolic rate (easy to calculate reasonably accurately) + energy consumed by your daily activities (must guestimate).

Resting metabolic rate is the energy required by an animal to stay alive with no activity. Therefore, your real metabolic rate is always significantly higher than your RMR. Calculating RMR is a very useful first step in calculating your real metabolic rate. Your Resting Metabolic Rate (RMR) is one of the main contributing components of energy expenditure (around 70%).



I can't display the pages I would like, but you can try for yourself, a female, 66 inches long, age 37, with 30% bodyfat get these results:

(any activity adds to the calories you burn in a given day)


Quote:



Your Estimated Resting Metabolic Rate



Your Weight: 238 Pounds or 108 Kilograms.

There are five different methods that are commonly used to calculate your RMR. All methods are used here and then averaged. Descriptions of the methods used are down below.

According To Calculation Method One*

Your RMR is 1804 Calories per day.

According To Method Two*

Your RMR is 1814 Calories per day.

According To Method Three*

Your RMR is 1805 Calories per day.

According To Method Four*

Your RMR is 2375 Calories per day.

According To Method Five*

Your RMR is 2358 Calories per day.

Your RMR Average From All Methods

Your Average RMR is 2031 Calories per day.





How This Calculator Works



Method One Description:

Males: 66+ (6.22 x weight (lbs)) + (12.7 x height (inches)) - (6.8 x age)
Females: 655 + (4.36 x weight (lbs)) + (4.32 x height (inches)) - (4.7 x age)

Method Two Description: Harris-Benedict Equations

BW = body weight in kilograms, HT = height in cm, Age in years
Men: RMR = 66.473 + (13.751*BW) + (5.0033*HT) - (6.755*Age)
Women: RMR = 655.0955 + (9.463*BW) + (1.8496*HT) - (4.6756*Age)

Method Three Description: REVISED Harris-Benedict Equations

BW = body weight in kilograms, HT = height in cm, Age in years
Men: RMR = 88.362 + (13.397*BW) + (4.799*HT) - (5.677*Age)
Women: RMR = 447.593 + (9.247*BW) + (3.098*HT) - (4.330*Age)

Method Four Description: Quick Estimate Formula

Men: BW (in kg) * 24.2
Women: BW (in kg) * 22.0

Method Five Description: Fat Free Mass Formula
This is the same for men and women.

RMR = 1.3 * Fat Free Mass (in kg) * 24



Last edited by watcher16 : Sun, Sep-11-05 at 03:35.
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  #65   ^
Old Sun, Sep-11-05, 03:33
BawdyWench's Avatar
BawdyWench BawdyWench is offline
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I admit I have not read this whole thread, but have read some of the posts from time to time.

What follows is my opinion only.

I come in on the side of not really believing in a "starvation mode" when talking about getting 1,000 calories or so. Yes, there is definitely a starvation mode in terms of real starvation wherein the body begins consuming its own muscle. BUT, I also believe that this is not going to happen unless you are getting very few calories (below 500?) for a very long time.

People today enjoy the "luxury" of eating a lot of food on a very regular basis. Not so in ages past.

I was recently reading a book written in the early 20th century concerning the years of World War I. It was a novel, but since it was written at the same time as the book was set in, I believe it gives a fairly clear view of things.

The thing that struck me was what people were eating. At one point, the one character (a woman) was looking forward to her lunch of one hard-boiled egg. No, this was not deprivation because of the war, this is what she felt was a good lunch.

Later, a family that included grown children were sitting down to a dinner of a roasted chicken. No, not one per person, but one measly chicken for something like 6 adults. Each person put in their request. The favorite portion was a wing. That was considered a good portion for an adult. When it got around the table and the only thing left were the legs, the one woman remarked that she would never be able to eat an entire chicken thigh.

I have long believed that people do not need to eat nearly as much as they do. I'm 5'6" and currently weigh about 160. If I were lean (and by that I don't mean skinny), I would weigh about 125 or 130. And I would probably need no more than 1,000 good-quality calories a day.

I do agree with the person who said that the type of calories matter. You can probably "starve" on 1,000 calories if it comes in the form of one slice of cheesecake (albeit low-carb). On the other hand, if you eat good protein, veggies, and a bit of fruit, 1,000 calories can be sufficient.

Here's another thing. We just visited a historic homestead where they had some of the people's clothing laid out on the beds or on dress forms. The dresses were tiny! This was the clothing that the people who lived in the home actually wore -- they were in the closets. And these people were in the very upper class. They had so much money, they didn't know what to do with it. They could certainly afford to buy as much good-quality food as they wanted. I don't believe they were starving.

Yes, people were smaller (boned) then, but not by that much. We're talking early 20th century. The one dress on the dress form must have been a 20" waist, if not smaller.

OK, I'm rambling. Suffice it to say, I don't place much credence in the idea of a starvation mode, at least as it's been bantered about. Also, I believe we eat too much, and probably 1,000 calories of good-quality food is sufficient for a person of my height. A petite woman would need less, and a large man would need more.

In my opinion.
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  #66   ^
Old Sun, Sep-11-05, 03:37
watcher16 watcher16 is offline
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Quote:
I don't place much credence in the idea of a starvation mode


I donīt know what to say. Everybody must form his own opinion
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  #67   ^
Old Sun, Sep-11-05, 03:45
Frederick's Avatar
Frederick Frederick is offline
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Hi there,

Quote:
Originally Posted by zajack
Just another thing to take into consideration. Science and studies have reached incorrect conclusions...on numerous occasions.


Science itself is never "wrong" when the scientific method is properly applied. Researchers can and often do reach incorrect conclusions when erroneously applying the scientific method. Which is why empirical studies backed by double blind placebo experiments that can be duplicated by any other scientist is necessary to assert the veracity of a hypothesis. Until then, the point in question never becomes fact, but remains a theory, however credible.

Naturally, scientists are human and naturally make errors. The "incorrect conclusions" are the results of human error--misinterpreting data--and not as a direct result of science itself. For instance, if we test the erosion of a piece rock, it's age can be readily determined within an acceptable range of uncertainty. However, if our test sample is tainted, our result would have reached the wrong conclusion. Or, if we had miscaculated the half-life used to determine the age of the rock, our results would be incorrect. These errors have nothing to do with the science of determining the age of the rock, but from human error--which again is why any credible study must pass the muster of being readily duplicated by other scientists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zajack
It's just as silly to completely ignore experience as it is to completely ignore science.


On the whole, I agree with you here.
I only disagree when my personal experiences will clash with the dictates of science. The scientific method when applied correctly is never wrong. For example, let's say I'm a miner in rural France. I'm fond of eating cheese with my bread. It's been my personal experience--along with all of my fellow miners--that leaving the cheese inside a limestone cave results in a mold that gives the cheese a tasty pungent flavor. Roquefort bleu cheese is born. We surmise and are convinced from our personal experience that leaving this particular cheese exposed to air causes the molding process to give the cheese it's special flavor. On that assumption, we should be able to take that cheese and leave it inside a cave in the Grand Canyon for a similar result. Now, lets say we actually run exepriments using the scientific method that isolates the lime/salt inherent in Roquefort caves that gives the cheese it's unique flavor, and not the oxidation process itself. In this scenario, would you ignore your personal experience in the favor of science and mold your cheese only in caves with a similar salt content? Or, would you go rely on the dogmatic personal anecdotal experience exposing molding this cheese by merely exposing it to air? For me, when personal experience clashes with science (through the scientific method, properly validated, and widely replicated by other scientists reaching the same conclusion), I will go with science everyday of the week and twice on Sundays.

With kindest regards,

Frederick
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  #68   ^
Old Sun, Sep-11-05, 03:51
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BawdyWench BawdyWench is offline
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Watcher, you didn't use the whole quotation. Here's the full sentence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BawdyWench
I don't place much credence in the idea of a starvation mode, at least as it's been bantered about.


What I meant was that I don't believe it exists as some people have been claiming. I'm objecting to those folks who fear dropping into "starvation mode" when they have a couple days of eating less than, say, 1,000 calories. Like one woman a while back was worried because she had the flu and didn't eat very much for a couple days. She thought she was in starvation mode and that her body was eating away at her muscle.

On some other threads I've been reading lately, some people are claiming that my body would go into starvation mode if I ate less than 1,500 calories a day. This was in response to to a question I had regarding a different plan I am considering. Again, I'm 5'6". These people thought I should be eating well over 2,000 calories per day so as not to fall into starvation mode.

To repeat, I believe starvation mode is a very real thing, just not the way a lot of people use the term.

My objection is to the incorrect use of the term applied very loosely. It's the difference between the clinical use of the word as opposed to the layman's use of the term. I object to the layman's use of the term.
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  #69   ^
Old Sun, Sep-11-05, 04:44
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UrbanZero UrbanZero is offline
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Interesting website/theory/experiments:

http://www.calorierestriction.org
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  #70   ^
Old Sun, Sep-11-05, 05:50
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kwikdriver kwikdriver is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by watcher16
(technical trouble with getting a reply posted)



I can't display the pages I would like, but you can try for yourself, a female, 66 inches long, age 37, with 30% bodyfat get these results:

(any activity adds to the calories you burn in a given day)





All fascinating stuff. You found where the term is used on the internet. Now, among all those links you so pleasantly provided, where is what I asked for: scientific proof that "starvation mode" exists, particularly the way it's been described in this thread? Since you've been patting yourself on the back so aggressively for finding the phrase, perhaps you could pat yourself even harder after finding scientific evidence.

Just to make this perfectly clear, since my earlier post was apparently ambiguous: what I want is scientific research demonstrating this effect exists, that is, research showing weight loss stops or drastically slows down below a certain calorie threshhold. Nancy provided research showing it doesn't happen; neither you nor anyone else has provided anything showing it does.

If there's any doubt about my meaning there, please let me know and I'll find a different way to phrase it, until my meaning is unmistakable. I'd hate to see you waste more of your time.
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  #71   ^
Old Sun, Sep-11-05, 08:47
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Kristine Kristine is offline
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Interesting debate.

To backtrack a bit toward the OP... Yes, you can slow your metabolism by chronic dieting. I've done it to myself. It's pretty unmistakable - when you're walking around shivering in a sweater when it's 70 degrees outside and your fingernails are blue, you know you've done something. But that takes a long time of admittedly stupid dieting and deliberate ignoring of hunger. I don't think the debate is whether or not a starvation response exists - it clearly does - but the extent to which Jane/Joe LCer here on the forum needs to be afraid of it happening. IMO, not even the hunger suppression of ketosis will make you eat that little food for a long enough period of time to seriously affect your metabolism.
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  #72   ^
Old Sun, Sep-11-05, 09:17
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Nancy LC Nancy LC is online now
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The thing is when I find starvation mode references in scientific literature, they're talking about REAL starvation that leads to death, not restricted calories. The vast majority of the references I found in the scientific literature about starvation mode were studying it in bacteria. However, you just type in starvation mode on the internet, into a regular search engine, and you'll get knocked over with river of references in the non-scientific world. I think it is a meme.

The one study there that does reference starvation mode doesn't actually describe anything about what starvation mode actually is. They could be eating 0 calories for 2 weeks for all we know.

It'd be interesting to find a study that actually described what "starvation mode" was.

Urbanzero, yes! The calorie restriction stuff is very interesting. Not that I want to join that club, but I think studying people who are voluntarily restricting their calories could provide huge amounts of the sort of information that dieters really need.

Last edited by Nancy LC : Sun, Sep-11-05 at 09:35.
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  #73   ^
Old Sun, Sep-11-05, 10:33
zajack zajack is offline
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I agree with kwikdriver.

This thread, at least as I was following it, regarded "starvation mode" kicking in and catabolizing muscle at under 1200 calories (or more than 500 under your body's daily caloric requirements.) I havent seen any material providing any scientific conclusions of that sort.

After searching online for some sort of proof to validate the caloric requirement claims being made here...I came up empty handed.

The only info I have found that seems relevant (repeated in a few different places...one of which was the nucdf website) summizes that your body will begin to catabolize your lean muscle mass on a low-carb or low calorie diet if your intake of protein and fat is insufficient or in the event of fasting.

Two of the more unquotable sites with regard to science were body building sites both of which recommended 10Xbodyweight in calories as part of a fat burning regimine without losing muscle. (which is higher then 1200 but a whole lot less than 500 cals below caloric usage for most bodybuilders.)

In addition...most of the sites recommend more frequent & smaller meals to keep metabolism high and the body "full" and in turn not worried about decreased total intake.

None of the articles I could locate had any kind of caloric recipe to avoid catabolization of muscle tissue. Nor could I find anything with any remote connection to the scientific community on this topic unless it involved fasting or anorexia.

K...I'm done...

edited

(i lied about being done)

Just wanted to add that there was mention in a couple of articles that initial body composition would effect impact of calorie restriction. Those with less body fat would experience muscle loss more quickly given that all other factors were the same (ie age, sex, activity level, caloric intake,etc) Seemed kinda relevent given that most people here have excess body fat.

Again...couldnt find anything regarding scientific studies on any of this...not saying it's not out there...I just couldnt find it.

NOW...i'm done.

Last edited by zajack : Sun, Sep-11-05 at 10:58.
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  #74   ^
Old Sun, Sep-11-05, 11:14
Frederick's Avatar
Frederick Frederick is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanZero
Interesting website/theory/experiments:

http://www.calorierestriction.org


Very interesting indeed.

I remember reading research indicating calorie restriction increased the lifespan in rats. The book hypothesising the reasons why the Okinawans have such a higher lifespan is also a very interesting read.

In my view, there is reason to warrant more studies on the efficacy of an eating regimen that meets or exceeds all of one's nutrient requirements at a lesser calorie intake level.

I'm certainly not suggesting calorie intake to be unimportant, but nutrient intake should be the primary focus upon which an eating regimen should be based, rather than on a set number of calories, in my view.
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  #75   ^
Old Sun, Sep-11-05, 11:46
watcher16 watcher16 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwikdriver
... where is what I asked for: scientific proof that "starvation mode" exists, particularly the way it's been described in this thread? Since you've been patting yourself on the back so aggressively for finding the phrase, perhaps you could pat yourself even harder after finding scientific evidence.


I call the reference in a scientific article in PubMed evidence the term exists in science. I call a reaction of a PHD from the medical center of a univerisity on the subject also evidence the term exists. If you don't want to see you will always be blind.

Quote:
Just to make this perfectly clear, since my earlier post was apparently ambiguous: what I want is scientific research demonstrating this effect exists, that is, research showing weight loss stops or drastically slows down below a certain calorie threshhold


Your explanation of 'starvation mode': "that weight loss stops or slows down below a calorie threshold", is the wrong perception.

Below 4000 cal. weight loss will stop also.... It would be quite stupid to research if weightloss stops, because it wouldn't. Continued starvation leads simply to ultimate weightloss: death. [edited for syntax errors]

Indeed more reacting is waisting time. I love to argue, but if the path of logic is left we come in Wonderland, all things go.

Last edited by watcher16 : Sun, Sep-11-05 at 12:29.
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