Hey shortstuff, thanks for the warning- I've been barfing for along time now so I know all the tricks, when I give the kibble then I really don't have to worry about the veggies..especially with the prices around here latley for them..
I can't get the "old "stuff b/c The farmers all have dibs on them so I have to buy retail, and even the darn butchers try to steal your money w/ soup bones around here.
My Nitro's favorite food right now is a bowl of pasta and he'll eat the pasta sauce, but he'll just stare at a tomato. go figure!
When he was a babe he loved blueberries and chicken legs, now he's like Oh no not chicken again! haha

BTW: Here's an interesting article about not feeding fish to our cats. Ruggles doesn't get anything fish except for salmon oil mixed into his food:

Of Cats and Fish

I was recently approached by an animal care student in England with the question for an assignment "whether cats can just survive on eating only fish" and I thought that this might be an interesting topic for many feline care givers. "The cats referred to are normal domestic cats who are fed entirely on any kind of fresh fish, raw and cooked, whole or dressed (...) for an average life span".

Feeding our domestic "pussy cat" is strongly associated with fish. The cliche portrait of the cat as a true fish lover is commonplace - fishing in the goldfish bowl, the "tuna addict", and back alley cats snatching fish scraps from trash cans. Countless pet products cater to this image with a wide variety of fish based and fish flavoured treats and staple diets.

The truth is that nearly all domestic cats do indeed fancy fish, and care givers around the world eagerly accommodate this desire of their feline friends. Question is: are we doing our cats a favour with this?

Is fish a component of the cat's natural diet?

The most up to date science of species classification based on molecular genetics as well as morphological schemes indicates, that the domestic cat (felis silvestris catus - often only called felis catus) is one of four sub species of the species felis silvestris. Because domestication has largely influenced and grossly altered the domestic cat's food preference, to explore the truly natural diet of felis catus we should look to the diet of its ancestors: the European wildcat or forest cat (felis silvestris silvestris), the Asian steppe cat (felis silvestris ornata), and the African wildcat or tawny cat (felis silvestris lybica) [1.]

When examining the diet of these three subspecies, none include fish. If we further expand our investigation to include all species of the genus felis, we come to the realisation that only one of its members - the jungle cat (felis chaus) - includes fish in its diet, although still hunts predominantly rodent prey [2.] but none of the others do, including the black-footed cat (felis nigripes), the sand cat (felis margarita), and Chinese mountain cat (felis bleti) [3.]

1. Wild Cats, Status Survey and Conservation Action Plan, IUCN/SSC Cat Specialist Group, Kristine Nowell and Peter Jackson, 1996, pages xxiii and 32
2. Wild Cats, Status Survey and Conservation Action Plan, page 83
3. Wild Cats, Status Survey and Conservation Action Plan, pages 8, 47, and 96

Although a diet including or consisting of fish is not natural for the domestic cat, could a diet of fish nonetheless meet the nutritional needs of the cat?

Canned Tuna is among the most popular food stuff to feed to companion cats, because cats are very fond of it. It is not uncommon for cats, that regularly receive tuna, to refuse all other foods. Cats displaying this addiction-like behaviour are often refered to by Veterinarians as "tuna junkies".

Feeding a mainstay of canned tuna is long known to cause diseases of dietary origin. One of the most prevailing diseases afflicting "tuna junkies" is Steatitis or Yellow Fat Disease - an inflammation of the fat tissue in the body due to a deficiency of vitamin E. A vitamin E deficiency is usually the result of feeding tuna, or any canned fish, packed in vegetable oil. These products are high in polyunsaturated fatty acids which oxidate vitamin E, besides being a poor source of vitamin E to begin with. Currently, a diet consisting of large amount of any type of fish is considered the most common cause of this syndrome, [1.]

Canned fish - tuna or other, packed in water or oil - is not a complete diet for cats. Although it is high in protein, it does not supply the cat with sufficient amounts of certain amino acids, mainly taurine, to maintain health. The Calcium to Phosphorus ratio in canned tuna is 1:14.8 [2.] - providing the cat with too little Calcium to balance Phosphorus, resulting in bone disease caused by a loss of Calcium in the bone due to a deficiency of this mineral in the diet. [3.] The only canned fish providing sufficient Calcium is salmon with bones.

Also, many essential vitamins are not provided in sufficient amounts through a diet of canned fish, such as vitamin A and most B vitamins, like Thiamin, Riboflavin. Pantothenic Acid, Folic Acid, and Vitamin B-12 [4.] Last but not least, canned fish is high in sodium, possibly providing the cat with too much of this mineral.

1. The Cornell Book of Cats, by the Faculty, Staff, and Associates of the Cornell Feline Health Centre, College of Veterinary Medicine, Cornell University, second edition 1997, page 93
2. USDA Nutritional database for standard Reference, release 13
3. The Cornell Book of Cats, page 79
4. USDA Nutritional database
5. Nutrient requirement of Cats, National Research Council, revised edition

Raw, whole fish: Much of the nutritional deficient nature of canned fish can be contributed to the way it was processed. Many nutrients are sensitive to heat, and cooking or canning reduces levels of or even eliminates some nutrients in foods. Also, many nutrients are concentrated in various organs and body parts - like vitamin A in liver and Calcium in bone - and carnivores are provided with a complete diet by consuming the entire prey. Therefore, would a diet consisting of whole, raw fish be adequate for cats? Many feral cats in the Mediterranean do indeed supplement their diet considerably with whole, raw fish, but unfortunately, no statistics are available about their health status. The population appear to be thriving, which may be contributed to the fact that these cats mainly hunt rodents despite the generous availability of fish. [1]

It seems that the idea of raw, whole fish is not entirely without problems. An enzyme found in all raw fish, called thiaminase, can destroy vitamin B-1 (Thiamin), leading to neurological disorders accompanied by a general physical wasting due to loss of appetite. [2] This enzyme can be destroyed by cooking the food, which however reduces overall nutritional density of the food itself as well.

1. Cats in the Sun, Hans Silvester, 1995
2. The Cornell Book of Cats, page 93

Fish, cooked or raw, as part of a supplemented diet: Initially, when evaluating fish meat as a base for a feline diet, species like saltwater halibut and freshwater rainbow trout appear to be nutritionally adequate in all the essential amino acids and fatty acids - when raw or cooked [1]. Supplementation could provide for correct amounts of Calcium within the right ratio with Phosphorus, and could bring levels of vitamins - such as vitamin A, D, E, and complex B, to optimal levels. However, fish meat seems to contain insufficient amounts of the trace minerals iron, zinc, copper, and manganese, making fish meat in the end an unsuitable choice as a base for a staple feline diet, because it would require unreasonable supplementation [2].

1. USDA Nutritional data Base
2. Nutrient requirement of Cats, National Research Council, revised edition

Summary:

Although our feline companions seem have a real taste for all things fishy, fish is in fact not a natural food for the species. Obviously it is the scent that makes these foods so appealing to felines, perhaps triggering some instinctive craving, not unlike a human's craving for greasy, baked goods. However, it could just as well be a learned taste preference. Many domestic cats raised in close contact with humans have exposure to fish from early on, predominantly through commercial foods containing fish meal as a protein source, as well as treats and table scraps*. Also, the stereotype teaches people that cats like fish, who then feed their cats fish, and the cats in turn prove their care giver right by developing a taste for it. That cats don't only eat what is good for them, but also posses the ability to learn taste preferences is indisputable. Every day in households all over the world the true carnivore cat behaves very much like an omnivore, stealing muffins and bread, or indulges in fruit and vegetables, often even ingesting things outright harmful like chocolate or tomatoes.

Care givers have to accept that no favour is done for the cat by feeding fish as a main staple.

Fish, no matter if whole, dressed, raw, cooked, or canned will cause nutritional deficiency of some kind, which in turn will eventually lead to serious disease.

If fish is to be included in the meal plan of the domestic cat, one may only do so sparingly as treats, or to entice a sick cat to eat. Other than that, the story of fish and cats shall remain a fairytale.

(* a large percentage of domestic shorthair cats raise by Feline Future without previous contact to fish as food, will not eat fish when presented with it experimentally)

So you feed them all the meat they can eat, and they still eat the fruit?



Is there any research you'd care to offer for our enlightenment?

I dunno Deb, I think it sounds like that article is really just saying don't make it a staple of your pet's diet versus don't ever feed your pet fish. What they don't talk about is what is nutrionally in fish that *is* good for your pet and isn't as plentiful in other foods.

I also find using tuna or salmon (water packed) is useful when getting my cat to eat new foods. I can just put diminishing amounts of fish into the new food and he'll eagerly switch over.

And Caveman said: "Is there any research you'd care to offer for our enlightenment?"

Sure ... find a "natural pet" list ... and when a list member posts the scientific studies ... or a new Billinghurst or Pitcairn site ... go there and read, read, read, read.

Do google searches on "raw feeding" ... or "BARF" ... or any of that sort of thing. You'll find the information ... it's out there. You have to read the pros and the cons and come to your own conclusions. That's what "research" is all about.

I've been doing this a long time. I have lots of experience with my dogs, their ancestors and offspring. I found what works the best for my dogs. If you want to preclude veggies from your dog's diet ... that's what works for you. Don't however, make the mistake of assuming that a quick link or two will give you any concrete answers ... or that I haven't made a careful study of all the literature, good and bad.

As for veggies ... dogs can't break down the cellulose in veggies ... so they need be to grated ... or as someone else said run "through a food processor". If you have hunting dogs, who actually hunt underground and in close proximity to the quarry as do my JRT's ... then you run the risk of their ingesting fleas from the quarry and getting a tape worm. Grated carrots are terrific preventatives for tapes.

And for the comment that wolves "shake" the stomach ... don't presume that they don't eat the contents of the stomach afterwards. Dogs/wolves tend to shake their raw food. I'd have to actually see the study to which you refer. Can you point me in that direction? I've read lots of biologists comments regarding the way wolves eat ... and by and large they tend to say that a wolf eats his prey from the inside out ... beginning with the stomach. And know what? I do feed my dogs tripe when I can get it.

The results that matter the most to me is seeing all of my dogs as healthy as they can be with efficient immune systems so that should they get injured while hunting, they will heal well and fast and without the intervention of anti-biotics unless absolutely necessary. Their coats need to be thick and vibrant ... their eyes clear ... their teeth clean ... their breath sweet ... their energy high. Since the way I feed works for my "pack" ... I think I'll stick with it! I'm obviously doing something right.

Actually, Ruggles is one of those cats who turns his nose up to fish; I've tried giving him a tuna can to lick and he won't. Although, he does seem to notice when I don't put salmon oil in his food mixture (as in he doesn't eat it as readily).

I also take the article to be more of a cautionary note on making fish a staple of your cat's diet. The fact that it can be addictive is what makes me want to avoid it -- even if that addiction is a preference. Cats are definitely hedonists and will only do what makes them happy -- Ruggles is the king of hedonists.

I get paid pretty well for my research, so I assume I'm doing something right. And after a few years of casual research on this question, I can't seem to find anything or anyone who can answer this, including you, now. I don't need big studies, but I'd be convinced with a little logic with some biochemistry thrown in. I'll dig some more this weekend, but I'm willing to make a few bets, at this point.

Let's say that dogs need plants. Why? How come no one can tell me WHY?

I like the idea of asking on a forum or list devoted to this subject. Can you suggest a good one?

I've fed my cats lots of fish, but they still adore chicken and turkey and ... ew, moths and grasshoppers. I've heard that addiction thing too but haven't experienced it with any of my cats. I think cats are creatures of habit and eat what they're used to, so if you only feed them one sort of food they'll turn up their noses at everything else. So I've always tried to keep changing their foods a little.

I wish I could get my cat to eat chicken gizzards and hearts. My other cat loved them, but Indy really doesn't.

Caveman, I'm sure dogs, like humans, can develop food preferences. I've heard of cats that ADORE olives. I had a cat eat a cashews once... one swiped a slice of bread once out of an opened bag. My sister's cat used to jump on the counter and lick the butter if someone left it on the counter... she discovered tongue grooves in the butter one time. Yuch!

They're curious, they probably like a little variety in their diet just like we do and sometimes perhaps they taste something they think is amazingly yummy and eat it even if they aren't particularly hungry. I've seen my cat eat a grasshopper after having eaten his fill of dinner.

And Caveman asked: I like the idea of asking on a forum or list devoted to this subject. Can you suggest a good one?

The one I belonged to for years was called Natural Pet. It was one of those "busy" lists with upwards of 30 to 100 posts per day. It began as a BARF list ... and then turned, gradually into a "cook food for your pet" list, at which point I opted out.

A quick search in google on "BARF" brought several results for email lists:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

And here's page a listing of quite a few other raw feeding lists:

http://www.barfers.com/barflists.html

There were several thousand results for this topic in google ... so it's not hard to find all kinds of information about the topic ... both pro and con. There's far more out there now than there was over twelve years ago when I started feeding this way.

In Dr. Pitcairn's book, he says:

"Despite their image as exclusive meat-eaters, the wild cousins of dogs and cats do consume plant foods -- sometimes these are found in the stomach contents of their plant-eating prey (often the first part of a kill a wolf eats). Sometimes wild animals eat plant foods directly. Dogs, especially, like vegetables, which are valuable for adding vitamins, minerals and roughage to the diet"

So while Dr. Pitcairn uses the same logic behind dogs eating plants as for people eating plants [vitamins, roughage etc] and doesn't go further into the question of "why" ... I'm not sure that it matters. What matters is that in a wild state, wolves/dogs would seek out plants as food. It could be as simple as ... because they like the odd veggie in their diet. As long as their diet is primarily meat, I'm not sure what the advantage would be in knowing the physiological reasons why animals seek out plant food. That they do is sufficient to include a small portion within their current diet.

Dogs, like humans, like variety in their diet when they can get it. I don't quite understand why the "why" is so important to you. Don't you eat things just because you like the taste? I know I do ... and just about everyone I know does as well. Why should me dogs be any different?

I was surprised when our vet told us to replace our 2 cats' dry food with canned. She actually suggested completely cutting out the dry, or going no more than 50/50. This was an SPCA vet, who had been seeing our cats since they were born; they were 1 year old when she told us to change to canned food.

Her reason was that dry food had a lot of "filler" -- high calorie, low protein. She didn't say "low-carb" specifically, but that's basically what she meant. She also said that canned food helps the cats keep more water in their systems.

I didn't know about lc when she told me all of this. But we did switch the cats to 1/2 can wet and 1/2 cup dry per day, and the chubby one has dropped two pounds. The other one has been lean all along. I'm thinking of switching them to all wet food if I can find an all-natural supplier in San Francisco. Anyone know of one?

As I wait for approval to the list you cited, I've had about an hour of surfing without any luck.



This is what I'm starting to recognize from my research: we might like to anthropomorphize (assume human qualities) our pets more than is really healthy for them. Dr. Pricairn is obviously in error when he uses the same logic behind dogs eating plants as for people eating plants. Dogs are carnivores and humans are omnivores. Why would he make this assumption, defying the very definition of the words "carnivores" and "omnivores"? An obvious error in logic without any hesitation.

I'll easily grant that wild dogs will eat the stomach matter of the herbivores they've taken, but it seems like a lot of trouble to go to to get some plants when hey, why don't they just eat the grass right under their feet if they need plants so much? The answer, of course, is that these plants are pre-digested for them (which is what herbivores are: predigested grass) by an animal that can actually digest plants. You mentioned previously that dogs cannot digest cellulose, so you have to puree their vegetables for them. Humans can't either; should we be pureeing all of our veggies, too?

There is some serious nonsense in some of the BARF websites I've seen. For example, from one of the top Google hits:

I'm a Vegetarian and do not want to feed meat to my pet. Can I still feed a raw diet?

Absolutely, you can feed your pet a vegetarian diet. [Further nonsense snipped]

One site didn't mention animal products at all. They called it the Biologically Appropriate Raw Food diet. Another site included a Honey/Vinegar Dressing to be poured on top of a vegetable mixture.



Again, anthropomorphizing. Can we assume that other animals like what humans like, too? Do hawks like bananas? Do cows like a little chicken with their cud?

Humans have, BY FAR, the most varied natural diet of any animal. Might we be wishing dogs liked what we like instead of knowing what they would eat if not fed in a dish by humans? So far, the only thing I've heard is that dogs will eat predigested plant matter. None of the websites I've seen advocate this, but instead presume that grinding up veggies will somehow substitute. (No explanations given, of course.)

Another site had a Problems I've Had Doing BARF section. This person complained that her dog wouldn't eat the vegetables she was giving it. So she starved the dog until it ate the vegetables.

It's these small bits of drunken wisdom that make me think I'm not going to find what I'm looking for.

I get whatever is on sale. lol. I buy the big jar of the Feline Future and make a month's worth at a time. Then whenever another good sale is going on, I'll make another.

Usually I use chicken legs or thighs and stew beef.
I use calves liver.. it's easy to cut and not as gross looking as the chicken liver.
Boneless, skinlless breasts and ground turkey are cheap during sales..but I Don't think it's enough fat. He seems more hungry if I just give him chicken and liver. So I started mixing the beef with chicken or the turkey.

And yeah, I freeze it. I seperate into cheap, plastic cups covered in foil. Stacks easy and plops right out into the dishes.Baggies are messy.

This one is a good one..
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/K9Nutrition/

Lew Olsen runs it and posts on it... Probably have heard of her. She doesn't believe dogs need vegetables either. She's the owner of www.b-naturals.com which is mostly a supplement site and has some articles.

Just wondering, what do you guys do for your cats? (maybe I missed it?)

Only reason I started with the Feline Future was because it was the only thing I could find on the internet about raw for cats. Other sites were about dogs and very vague. All the dog sites are prettymuch the same, % of this, % of that,.. never found anything like that for cats. I like it though, he's doing great on it, no complaints.

Do you guys follow 'recipies" or is there some other formula..

Unfortunately, this is untrue. I have seen many fat animals on raw diets. And no, it's not that they were fat to start with and are maintaining or in the process of losing. They are overeating and over fed, and fat. Any animal, given the right circumstances, can overeat on any diet, including raw.

Nor is raw feeding the answer to all of life's problems. I have seen raw-fed dogs with cancer, allergies, terrible skin, obesity, gastrointestinal upsets, poor haircoats, hormone issues (mostly thyroid) and diabetes.

The bottom line is that there is no one diet that is all things to all dogs (or cats). What does nicely for one pet can kill another, and that goes for commercial dry kibble or the finest raw diet.

Generalities should generally be avoided.

Also, in strict terms, dogs are not carnivores. They are adapted omnivores. Cats, on the other hand, ARE strict carnivores and do well on meat diets with little or no carbohydrate (provided there is adequate vitamin and mineral supplementation).