To add to this, a diabetic must have breakfast or they will set themselves up for problems. Many, if not most, of us on these lc boards suffer from some sort of insulin resistance. I began losing weight once I began eating 3 times a day.

according to the article, fasting actually reduces insulin resistance.

Great if you're trying to maintain your weight. Not great if you are trying to lose (and maintain as much of your lean body mass as possible in the process). When your body has to tap into your lean body mass reserves for the process of gluconeogenesis repeatedly because protein is not coming in consistently for this process, you lose muscle (note the study made no mention of lean body mass composition of the mice who skipped meals and/or fasted compared to their non-fasting counterparts). No, thanks.



Low carbing already does this without having to skip meals or go hungry. It would be interesting to see them compare the effects on insulin sensitivity with a regular standard American diet where meals are skipped to that of low carb where low carb meals are eaten on a regular basis.



Again, low carbing produces similar resuts without having to skip meals. So...why should I be skipping meals again?



So...as long as you don't wind up binging and your caloric intake balances out, you won't wind up gaining weight. BUT...as soon as you can't stand being hungry any more (or wind up having a hypoglycemic attack) and binge, you've undone any benefit AND if this behavior is continued over a period of time, it can lead to bulemia.

And this makes skipping meals or going for an entire day without eating on a regular basis a good thing how again?

Great if you're trying to maintain your weight. Not great if you are trying to lose (and maintain as much of your lean body mass as possible in the process). When your body has to tap into your lean body mass reserves for the process of gluconeogenesis repeatedly because protein is not coming in consistently for this process, you lose muscle (note the study made no mention of lean body mass composition of the mice who skipped meals and/or fasted compared to their non-fasting counterparts). No, thanks.

I am sure, in fact I know , that humans can fast and still restrict caloric intake. as a matter of fact, there is a school of thought that believes fasting can make it easier to reduce total caloric intake.

I would like to see data that shows that muscle mass is used before fat. I would expect both to be burned with fat being burned at a faster rate. In my case, having gone from 282 lbs to 235lbs, and from 24% fat to 16% fat, a little math will show that while I lost 7.4% of my body muscle, I lost 44% of my body fat.

It would be interesting to see them compare the effects on insulin sensitivity with a regular standard American diet where meals are skipped to that of low carb where low carb meals are eaten on a regular basis.

that would be very interesting indeed.

http://atkins.com/Archive/2002/1/11-918650.html

http://atkins.com/Archive/2003/3/12-470554.html

Hmmm...this might explain why I haven't had a cold in over 2 years (even though my kids have had plenty of them and are usually more than willing to share). I never skip breakfast anymore.

According to the first link you posted, those guys fasted for 10 days straight. Neither I nor the link I posted refer to extended fasts. I fast for less than a day, and in the link I posted, the fast was for one day. I would hope that there would be differences in those two types of fasts.

Furthermore, are you trying to tell me that people on low carb diets lose ZERO muscle? It might be possible but I find it difficult to believe.

Really? According to this post: http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthre...670#post2462670 you've been fasting for 17+ weeks and have fasted for as long as 100 days and at the time of that post, you were experiencing hypoglycemic episodes as a result of your fasting activities. I find it interesting that you maintain defending the practice of skipping meals on a regular basis (in fact, going most of the day eating nothing at all) even though you are suffering negative physical consequences as a result of it.




No and nowhere have I said that, although repeated studies have shown that there is less loss of LBM on low carb (adequate protein) than with other weight loss methods: http://atkins.com/Archive/2002/12/10-930978.html http://atkins.com/Archive/2002/1/11-848672.html
It is normal and to be expected that as your total body mass decreases, some muscle loss will also occur as the body simply has to carry around less mass on a daily basis (in other words, it's not working as hard as it was) unless the person is actively working on maintaining or gaining LBM. For that purpose, adequate protein on a regular basis is required along with weight training. It's also important to distinguish between losing a small amount of LBM because the body no longer needs it and losing LBM because the body is using it for the purpose of gluconeogenesis/body maintainence due to a lack of dietary protein. Also, as has been posted before, the body can only absorb a certain amount of nutrients (including protein) at one time, so getting all your protein for the day at one time isn't going to cut it when you are either trying to keep the LBM you have or increase it.

I never fast for more than 24 hours straight. Those guys fasted for 10 days straight

The first link you posted said that those guys lost only 0.4 lbs of muscle of 14 lbs total loss. That is pretty close to ZERO muscle loss.

Anything worth doing has negative effects, just that the positives far overweigh the negatives. A person might experience low blood sugar symptoms on a fasting diet, but even successful WOEs like LC have negative side effects, including bad breath among other things.
[/QUOTE]

There are negative/unpleasant side effects (not all low carbers experience halitosis or constipation for that matter) and there there are consequences that potentially threaten your health and safety (hypoglycemic episodes). Last I checked, having a mild case of bad breath doesn't cause any physical harm and I'm not likely to pass out behind the wheel of my car because I have bad breath or constipation.
Repeated bouts of hypoglycemia also trigger the relase of stress hormones like cortisol and adrenaline that impact other body systems in a negative way.
If you believe it's "worth it" to lose weight in that manner, that's your choice, but you'll probably have a hard time convincing others that it's a good [healthy] way to accomplish weight loss, including me.



The numbers are what they are. I didn't perform the study, I just linked to the abstract of the results. Still, loss of LBM is significantly lower when there is adequate protein intake on a consistent basis than when there is not. Something else to consider is that when a lot of weight lost is LBM, if the weight is then regained, most of it is fat leaving the person with a higher BMI than before at the same higher weight unless steps are taken to rebuild LBM through regular, adequate protein intake and weight resistance excercises.

Everyone loses muscle, fat and water when dieting. The reason muscle is lost is because weight is lost. You are not as heavy and less muscle is needed to hold you up. As I am typing this I see that this fact is already pointed out so this is just to emphasize that point.

You have 16% body fat when you weigh 235 lbs? What method did you use to determine that. I would like to trade in my Tanita.

I see from your other thread that your perspective on breakfast will never change, since you're a religious faster, and as such, extremely unlikely to consider eating breakfast anyway. What exactly was the point of this thread if you're never going to be swayed regarding what the majority here consider proven health benefits of eating breakfast? Just curious as to your motives.

And I wonder about comparing low blood sugar symptoms with halitosis. Having bad breath usually doesn't cause me to get dizzy, shaky or nauseous, which can precede passing out in possibly dangerous situations.

Vicky

Vicky,

Listen, I am not saying that people should not eat breakfast. Breakfast works for some people and it does not work for some people. All I'm saying is that people who dont like to eat breakfast should not be coerced into doing so by the medical and diet establishments.

But if we are going to start a fight,
then read some of the negatives associated with a low carb diet.

Symptom (% of patients complaining)

Constipation (68%)
Headache (60%)
Halitosis (38%)
Muscle cramps (35%)
General weakness (25%)
Diarrhea (23%)
Rash (13%)

As it turns out, the low sugar symptoms I was experiencing might not have been low sugar at all. I think it was low blood pressure as a result of drinking far too much water for the paltry amout of salt I was consuming. I never thought I would see the day when I would have lbp and a resting heart rate of 63bpm

And about my body fat- believe it. It comes from running and swimming and cycling many times a week.

That's from atkinsdietalert.com, a PETA sponsored site.

I rest my case.

Wildcard,

I'm not averse to starting a fight over something worthwhile, but this ain't it. If you want people to bless your avoidance of what most of the dieting and bodybuilding community at large seems to believe is the best way to preserve muscle, increase metabolism and keep blood sugars level, then I don't think you're going to get it, no matter how long this thread gets.

I read your posts, I read your stats, I read your arguments, and they all seem to point in a general direction: I would be extremely worried about you if you were in any way dear to me, because it sure looks like you're going to do yourself metabolic damage if continued long term. I see things like:

1. Fasting for extraordinary amounts of time
2. Extreme amounts of exercise that can't help but use up lean muscle tissue if done during fasting.
3. Low minerals (if you're low on salt, you're likely low on potassium and magnesium)
4. Sugar or meal bingeing
5. Very low resting heart rate?


I'm no expert in nutrition, but these thing raise red flags. Has your doctor seen the whole picture, and if so, is he OK with this?

Up until I looked at your diet (and that last post) I was assuming you were low-carbing. Since you're not, what you do for breakfast really does not apply to the people low carbing here. There is no sugar in our system in the morning, so we must put some protein in, first thing. It will wreak havoc with our bodies if we do not. Since you are not in ketosis, it will not affect you, and therefore, you can fast with impunity. If a low carber tried that, it would not be a good thing. We'd literally eat our muscle mass if we tried to exercise without some protein stores to draw on, and would mess up our metabolism.

I also love the percentages of either constipation or diarrhea. I didn't know that if I weren't stopped up, I'm going all the time. The percentages add up to roughly 100% if you add the two.

Vicky