We dont seem to be having much of one either Lisa, we kill animals nonstop round the clock, so morals and debates dont seem to make us any better when it comes to killing then animals. There are plenty of crazy humans out there that would walk by and stab someone in the face without thinking about it.

As for eating dairy supports the veal industry. Well if I were you I would look into the numbers. A hell of a lot of dairy cows, when no longer useful end up as meat on your table. (quoted from DEM)

DEM - I'm staying out of this for the most part since I was partly raised on a dairy farm, my DH and I own a Feed Store, my DH rodeos and is an avid hunter so obviously my views are quite different. Maybe this sounds harsh but I don't think twice before eating any meat but to each their own.

I'm confused about your statement that I copied above. What do you think that they should do with the cows when they no longer produce milk? If we didn't butcher them I guess we could put thousands of cows out to pasture for years and years to die of disease and old age. If this were to happen the farmers would be paying through the nose for the land to keep these cows eating and drinking until they die of natural causes. Not to mention the vet bills if they get hurt or sick. The price of milk would literally sky rocket, cheese would be only for the rich! Butchering these dairy cows is no different than controlling the environment with wild game hunting if you drink milk, yogurt, cheese etc. Now for the vegetarians that don't eat these things they would have more of a valid point.

I can see how one would think that by drinking milk you are supporting the veal industry. I'm sure stuff like this happens on some farms, but on our dairy farm our cows were not put back on the machines until their calves were weened.

Don't get me wrong I have no problem with people not eating meat because of their beliefs or because they just plain think it's wrong. I'm glad I'm not fighting this issue with myself as you are. I have a hard enough time worrying about what I eat as it is.

RD64, DH would love to come stay in your parts for hunting season! You are also so right about how much money is donated and raised to help the environment of wild animals. My DH belongs to Ducks Unlimited and the amount of money that is raised at their auctions for their habitat is incredible!

Wee

I didnt have a special point WeeOne, you brought it up. My point was cows, and their calves from dairy farms ARE sold for slaughter. If a meat company gets veal from a dairy farm, the dairy farm is helping the veal industry. Maybe not every farm does it, but a lot do. I was never talking about the right or wrong of slaughtering dairy cows, just that it does happen and was very relevant to the comment made about the dairy industry and veal.

I am just talking about complicity here. I dont care if its animals or not, its just the fact that if they provide the very product that the other company needs, their is a link between them. If I had a dead body that someone I knew had killed, I wouldent be able to say well just because I have it doesnt mean I killed him, while this is true, I still played a vital role in the whole affair. That applies to anything, not just this particular topic.

I applaud that you guys and everyone else donates money to save wild animals and their habitats, but I have a sneaking suspision its so you will still have animals to kill next year

But its better then it used to be. Everyone can look back and see what human hunting as done to our environment, buffalo is a good example. Atleast its more responsible now.

The point I brought up was to the person that thought that the calves were suffering because humans were drinking it's milk instead of them. That is not always the case. We weened our calves for 3 to 4 weeks before putting them on a replacer. Some do it within 24 hours, that is enough time "even in puppies and kittens with proper care" to get the essential nutrients needed to live a healthy life. I know I have raised 1 day old stray kittens and puppies. I understand that one may think that drinking milk and eating cheese supports the veal industry since the male offspring of dairy cows can sometimes be sold as veal. Our dairy farm raised it's male offspring as beef cows or bulls for breeding. I realize other farms don't always do this but if someone wanted to continue eating dairy they could find out if the dairy that they buy their products from does this.

What I was trying to ask you was what you think we should do with the dairy cows once they stop producing milk. You stated that they are also put on our dinner tables. I just don't know what else we would do with them if we didn't butcher them.

You are correct about the money that is raised but also a large portion of it is to clean the land that non-hunters have thrashed by leaving trash, burning timber and such.

Wee

I don't agree with killing for sport, I think if an animal is killed it should be used. I also believe most hunters hunt to use what they kill... they eat it and wear it. Besides, I would sooner support the swift shooting death of a deer who lived his life in the wild, than I would raising a chicken in a cage for food.

My point is this. Predators are not only a natural part of life, but a needed part of life. PETA doesn't recognize the global need for predators, and they see human predators (no matter how responsible and humane) as doing something "cruel" and "selfish". Vegetarianism is out of sync with nature. If PETA had their way cats would be fed vegan diets and nothing would ever be killed for whatever reason. I find it so ironic that if their dream to preserve life were ever actualized, all they ensure is the hasty demise of most every species and a steady retrogression of life on earth back to the level of primordial slime.

Imagine a stack of blocks, each block is dependant on the one that is lower than itself for support. If you pull one of the lower blocks, everything on the top not only collapses, but this collapse also triggers the fall of all blocks on the bottom. Life and the foodchain is a lot like that. Each species is stacked on each other, the dominant predatory species keeps the lower ones in check, and in turn the lower species support the dominant species with fuel. Nature is a delicate balance, and predators are an intrinsic part of maintaining that balance. Eliminating predatory practices would have an effect similar to eliminating producers.



It is REALLY a stretch to compare animals raising/using humans for food to humans raising/using animals for food.

You seem to equate the life and feelings of animals with the life and feelings of human beings. I don't understand this comparison. Sure, animals have emotions, but do you really believe they are as sophisticated as the emotions of people? Does any organism with a nervous system deserve equal treatment to humans? Where does this end... should we outlaw abortion too since the fetus has a primitive nervous system? Come on, you and I both know this is ridiculous.

The human nervous system is so much more complex than any other animals... humans are capable of feeling not only momentary pleasure/pain, but we also feel anxiety and doom for the future. A human being is capable of understanding the gravity of his or her situation and it's implications on the future (well MOST of us do anyway ), whereas an animal lives exclusively in the here and now. While an animal may feel momentary pain when their neck is severed, they didn't spend their lives living in fear of "slaughter day". A human being would, because our nervous system is that much more sophisticated.

It is because of this that I really can't see a comparison between humans raising animals for food, and an animal doing the same to a human.

Although this does encroach on a related topic of interest for me. What if we weren't the highest on the food chain? Say, if aliens from another galaxy colonized earth... what if these beings had nervous systems so much more advanced than ours, that they were not only capable of expressing themselves and communicating in ways we can only dream of (i.e. telepathy), but they also could experience some sensations that were unthinkable to the human mind. It is possible these sophisticated beings would look at us as we look at animals. Our primitive methods of communication and experiencing emotion would make it impossible for them to relate to us. Would this lack of ability to relate to humans result in them treating us as we treat animals, or would they be able to understand that we have meaningful emotional lives and feel terror, fear, dread, and anxiety over the future just as they do?

I think a lot of vegitarians think animals just aren't understood by humans, like humans aren't understood but my hypothetical aliens. In other words, animals are conscious enough to make killing them wrong. I disagree, but it is worth considering.


I agree. An animal should not be made to feel any pain that is preventable.

SLOW down there .

That's the rub. You said "if you were in captivity and knew death was imminent"... that is a big if. Animals have no concept of the future, they have no idea they are being raised for food. This is exactly why we as humans have deemed it acceptable to raise animals for food. It is assumed the pain of being a slaughter animal begins and ends with slaughter. If animals had human nervous systems, they would spend their entire lives in a state of misery. Fortunately they do not.

No, but that is the goal of PETA and many vegetarians.


Easy. Focus on what they want to focus on, ignore what they want to ignore, no matter how obscene the truth is actually distorted. It's not all that dissimilar to how PETA front organization PCRM ignores the millions of people who had their lives saved or improved by atkins, and instead focuses on the one or two cases where people claim to have been made sick or died from it.

I have no doubt that animal cruelty has happened at slaughter houses. What I am saying is, I have a strong doubt that being excessively cruel to animals is the norm. THis is just as I believe that though some people may get sick and die on atkins, 99.99% of people will not (unlike what PCRM expects us to believe).

PETA isn't concerned with research, it is concerned with propaganda, period. It isn't concerned with research and reality, because they know their position is ultimately a frivolous one. They need to sell vegetarianism, because logic alone won't cut it. Their propaganda is so blatant and irresponsible too. I saw a PETA video a few days ago, of a man stomping on a piglet, bashing it with a rod... it was absolutely horrible. Yes, I felt terrible watching it. It was a disturbing video. Do they expect me to believe pigs are ritually killed like this? WHY on earth would they? Even if these ranchers were animals who didn't care about the pain of the creatures, it would be so much more time/cost efficient to just put it down with a bullet or tool, rather than torture the little thing for an hour.

Yes it is more responsible. One of the main reasons is bison farms that activly breed the animals. They support the cost of this by selling products such as buffalo meat. Which by the way is not only tasty, it is an extreamly high protien and iron food

I think one point that everyone on here seems to be agreeing about is the fact that animal cruelty is not acceptable regardless if it's a pet or livestock.

I find buffalo way to salty, or tangy not sure which . My point was that PETA regardless of if you like them or not, does the research. They dont believe in killing animals so nothing they find is going to be good about the meat industry. They say its bad, it doesnt mean you have to agree. They believe something and show people. What happens at slaughter houses isnt made up, it happens and they try and prove that something bad is happening and back it up with proof that they find. Hunting organizations who have no love for PETA talk about their views but to those people its not propaganda, its a two way street. I dont care if PETA is against the Atkins diet, I am still on it. I dont have to agree with everything a group says to know I tend to side with that group. I agree they go overboard on some things but can anyone name one interest group that hasent?

Just because cows dont know they are going to die doesnt mean they dont know if their lives are in a crappy condition or not. That was what I was getting at. Even if you KNEW you were going to die(which humans can) you would still want to live in decent conditions until it happened. Cows on top of not knowing the fate that awaits them yearn for a live in good conditions. So regardless of if the end is known or not. Living beings want conditions they consider livable.

PETA wants that for animals, I dont blame them. They overstep on purpose, most groups do. You go for all and hope for some. Animals are never going to get equal rights. peta isnt trying to get them HUMAN rights, but rights to a real life. You arnt going to get arrested for sexualy assaulting a cow..well, yeah you are but not for the cows sake.) People are overexagerating what exactly they say PETA is trying to do(You would swear PETA is trying to come into peoples houses and attack them with sticks for eating meat). Maybe they want meat eating stopped(I eat meat so I cant say I support them 100% otherwise I would be a hypocrit) but then again thats their right, and I really wouldent worry about it happening beacuse it wont. I take the good with the bad. They fight an unwinable fight when it comes to stopping meat eating but they are fighting a winable fight when it comes to helping animals and I am behind that completely. And they dont just sell vegetarianism. They are an animal rights group. Vegetarianism just happens to be one of their fronts.

As for the piglet, That kind of thing happens at a lot of slaughter houses. It obviously happens in numerous places otherwise they wouldent find it everywhere they go. And if they do find it that means it does happen, even if they were digging for it. They sure arnt doing it and saying someone else is. Its NOT ok if this happens at all.

I have a friend who is a vegan, but for ethical reasons allows himself freerange meat. I think that if you have a problem with animal cruelty, you could just stop eating animals that have been treated badly. Otherwise, there is no reason you can't continue this diet without ANY meat, just substitute tofu.

Id love to, I eat it sometimes but not nearly enough. Stuff is expensive and if I could afford to eat it all the time I would.

And just so you all know. I am not saying you support or condone animal cruelty, I am just talking about my view points on it.

Weeone, Your husband wold love hunting in Pa. We have so much public land for hunting here is like paradise. Some of my hunting liscence money goes to buying up land here for gamelands plus we have 1 million plus acres of the Allegheny National Forest. You mentioned ducks unlimited. Thats a great conservation group who has contributed so much to waterfowl all across the US. Another group that deserves praise is the wild turkey federation. They have been huge in the comeback of wild turkeys all over the USA. Our game commisiion here does a great job of keeping the deer herd healthy. I'm proud of how sportsman have greatly contributed to the conservation of wild life.

Why do PETA members fling buckets of paint at rich old women wearing fur, but not harass Hell's Angels for wearing leather? (Seen on a bumper sticker)

I've gone back and forth about animal rights over the years. One of my earlier jobs as a child on the farm was chasing the headless chickens to keep them out of the tall grass during butchering time. They'll run around for several minutes that way. How much do you suppose they actually rationalize their fate when it takes them several minutes to even realize they've been decapitated?

Sorry to be gross, but it illustrates my point that animals are sometimes credited with way too much awareness and human-like emotion and resoning, IMO.

Bob Barker once said in an interview that we shouldn't eat eggs since they were "stolen young" of the chicken, or milk, since it was for the calves. Add to that the people saying we should boycott certain fruit and vegetable farms who use illegal migrant workers, and some factions around this area who want to shut down "corporate farms" that are "taking over the midwest"...I'm getting hungry already.

Another thing I find interesting is our aversion to eating certain species when in other cultures, it's acceptable. Horse and dog are staples in some countries, but you wouldn't catch ME eating them!!!

that bumper sticker is very funny <snicker>

[quote]And you guys keep saying you are for humane treatment but who is going to even begin to try and enforce it? The government hasent/wont.[quote]

That is why I vote with my wallet and buy organic free range meat (except for those delicious nitrate free smoked chicken breasts from Trader Joe's). I do not support a company if I have seen evidence that they mistreat their animals on large feedlots. Granted, I have my own standards of what that means.

This society is in a unique position of choice that our ancestors did not have the luxury of enjoying. Getting the meat from the supermarket takes a big burden off of us having to go out back and slaughter a cow. My mother, as a girl, would have to help her mother wring the chicken's neck and clean it, or there was no dinner. She grew up in a rural town in Switzerland and there were no supermarkets or any other stores - they raised all of their own food from eggs to chicken, pigs etc. Now, we have stores that carry produce from around the world. It is easier nutritionally to be a vegetarian now, with so many products and produce choices available. If my mother would have wanted to be a vegetarian in the 1940's in postwar Europe, she would have had to eat weeds. My point is (and I do have one) is that it is the luxury of this country that we have the availability of choice. These choices have given rise to a moral and political argument about eating meat that simply did not exist until recently (I mean as an argument that received mass attention, I understand that vegetarianism existed before this generation). I think it is all part of a general evolution - it will be interesting to see where it all goes. I do not see people never eating meat again, but I think the general standards of meat production will improve.

I don't think that DEM is advocating that we all be vegetarians or that killing animals for our needs is wrong. That being said, I don't think any rational person can believe that animals are not mistreated and abused in the name of saving money. I grew up in Colorado and my extended family had a very large ranch. They geld cattle without anesthetics as well as dehorning them without anesthetics and animals suffer a great deal.

I am not a vegetarian, I think we need meat to be healthy. But that does not mean that we cannot insist that more humane farming and ranching practices be utilized. I have been around a lot of feedlots and cattle DO know what is coming. They often break lose and trample other cattle and people out of their fear. They cry and scream when the blow to the head does not take the first time. I am just saying, as I believe DEM is, that there are more humane methods and we don't use them.

We also cannot ignore the fact that working in a feedlot and butchering animals is one of the most dangerous occupations that one can be employed in. Both psychologically and physically, this is a bad bad line of work. It is very dangerous and the men do experience problems dealing with what they are doing.

PETA may exploit a lot of things but they do not make these films up out of nowhere. It happens a lot, and you cannot believe that these are just isolated incidents. I have seen cattle and horses drug by chains after a pickup. I have seen the condition that cattle arrive in after being shipped in a crowded truck and have trampled each other.

To say that these animals are less sophisticated emotionally than we are does not mean that they do not know fear and pain. They certainly do, and you can see it with your own eyes should you ever watch it.

We eat meat, but that does not mean we cannot be activists for change in how these things are done. Consumers will ultimately decide how slaughter and animal husbandry is conducted.

You might want to read Upton Sinclairs's novel "The Jungle" that covers the history of the meatpacking trade. Not a pretty read. But an accurate one.

Orchid

I have no sympathy for rich old woman wearing fur. There is a difference between fur and and leather and you know that as well as I do, so lets not try and make that into an argument. Leather comes from cows already killed for food atleast here I can say they arnt being wasteful, use everything if you are going to kill something. Fur animals (mynx, fox, rabbit, etc) are killed soley for their fur, their bodies are thrown in piles and burned. And to get the fur? anal or genital electrocution until they die. The fur industry is a waste of natural resources and completely and utterly useless in a modern society.

I cant understand your reasoning between a chicken having its head cut off and its body running around equated to its understanding of things. If you had your head cut off your body would twitch for several seconds to minutes read up on it. Your eyes also look around and you would responed to voice commands such as "look at me" for 15 seconds or more. All facts of a human having their head cut off, not pretty but true. What is it caused from? the nerves reacting to being severed from their boss(the brain) and they malfunction until they die. Just like chickens, cows...everything with a brain. Its science not speculation. What are you basing your conclusions on that we give animals to much credit?. What is it that makes you think animals get to much credit in the smarts department? I cant imagine its speech...Birds with a brain the size of a peanut are capable of learning to talk...cant be that we are self-aware. Every living thing is self-aware. If they werent they wouldent try and save their own lives when danger came, if its instinct, then thats the only reason we do it too.

People will always eat meat. But the animals destined to be killed should be shown respect and kindness while alive.