I wonder. I agree with you, sugarjunkie -- for some people calories really seem to matter.

But I wonder if Martin's point is testable. I mean I think what he's basically saying is ok, let us say that at 1900 calories you gain weight, and at 1600 you didn't. If, however, you did those calories all in meat, instead of meat-and-whatever-else, would you still gain? What if instead of meat a lot of it was in sheer fats like coconut oil? Would it still result in gain? I think most of us have not experimented with the "makeup" of our calories to that degree, to know for sure, at least I haven't.

PJ

I would love to test the theory. I think to really test the notion that calories have nothing to do with whether we gain or lose someone would have to eat a huge amount of food. I think even too much protein can cause an insulin response, so I would love to see what a really high calorie, high fat diet would do to someone. I'm wondering if you would stay in ketosis in that instance. Or if anyone would gain weight, or lose for that matter. It would be interesting to try. Any takers?

My view isn't that the amount of calories consumed have nothing to do with weight gain/loss but that we do not have to focus on CALORIE RESTRICTION or EXERCISE as ways of calorie intake reduction or raising calorie output through additional exercise.
For the masochist's who enjoy self harm I'm sure any form of self torture is a pleasure and as it's a free world I'm happy to let them get on with it. Exercise (sufficient to make a worthwhile contribution to weight loss) isn't an option for me and when I was suffering hunger pangs I was as good at resisting them for much longer as I can hold my breath but perhaps as long as I can leave any red wine in a bottle once opened.
So anyone suggesting calorie restriction or additional exercise to me was wasting their time. Fortunately Jimmy Moore interviewed Annika Dahlqvist shortly after I had listened to An earlier version of Gary Taubes why we get fat lecture and the rest is history. (still no weight regain either)

Well I'm happy to put my experience of daily consuming more calories than required for basic metabolic rate and while losing weight and while maintaining weight without calorie counting or restriction and without carb counting on record.

I think everyone could do as I do without much effort though I'm not sure my current a maximum of one bottle of red wine daily is advisable during the weight loss stage. I did give up the red wine for the six months I was actively losing weight.

My view now is that it's mostly to do with gut flora and inflammation.
I think we need to do everything possible to encourage LEAN TYPE bacteria to thrive in the gut and reduce those gut microbes associated with obesity. So reducing all pro inflammatory foods while improving anti inflammatory status is the key. Hence the supplements I use and the avoidance of refined carbohdrates, caloric sweeteners, and elimination of all omega 6 pro inflammatory industrial seed oils such as corn, soybean, safflower, sunflower and cottonseed oil and the use of coconut oil.

When we think about the use of calories we think about those used maintain body temperature, those used by muscles, and those used by our organs BUT I think we ignore the fact that immune function ,when activated, increases the body's demand for fuel. So by eliminating underlying chronic inflammation we reduce appetite by reducing this extra fuel need.

Also by reducing inflammation in the gut we enable the lean type gut bacteria to thrive and these are less efficient at extracting calories from the food we consume so more calories go down the loo, while those pro inflammatory obese type bacteria that promote inflammation and maximise calorie uptake are reduced. Spreading omega 3 through the day increases the amount of Bifidobacterium in the gut and likewise taking Bifidobacterium probiotics (or yoghurt with Bifidobacterium) improves alpha lipoic acid status which improves omega 3 status. Together this improves the ability to resolve chronic inflammation.

I am convinced the answer lies in restoring the metabolic flexibility that allow ketone burning throughout the day whenever needed with this in mind I think switching to coconut oil and eliminating all those omega 6 oils mentioned above not only reduces inflammation but also by providing an easily accessible source of Medium Chain Triglyceride's not only reduces appetite but also improves metabolic flexibity. I think improving mitochondrial function is equally as important as improving gut flora.

I found this review most helpful.Mitochondrial energetics and therapeutics. I think switching off appetite so one goes longer between meals/snacking enables ketone use through the day and thus allows you to use fat as a temporary, rather than permanent, calorie store.

Having fat soluble vitamins available for use rather than degrading while imprisoned in fat cells for years improves matters and ketone burning together with intermittent fasting improves mitochondrial biogenesis and these replace dysfunctional mitochondria so improving your bodies ability to regulate body temperature and your brown fat's ability to dispose of surplus calories.

As a result of my underlying condition I don't have a functioning bladder so I am obliged to self catheterize every 4~5 hrs so I WAS prone to UTI (urinary tract infection) understanding how Vitamin D is antimicrobial improved matters enormously and adding curcumin (another powerful antimicrobial agent) has totally (fingers crossed) solved the problem and NOT USING ANTIBIOTICS has enabled my natural lean type gut flora to re establish.

So my message is that in addition to a low carb diet we must deal with chronic inflammation to encourage lean type gut flora that thrive in a low inflammatory gut while discouraging pro inflammatory obesity creating gut flora and also improve mitochondrial function though ketone burning (MCT, IF)

Added to all the above is circadian rhythm and melatonin, I think this is often neglected, it's a powerful anti inflammatory and getting it flowing from 8pm through to morning (when BRIGHT LIGHT getting outside should switch it off) is essential.

hmmm... I lost over 80lbs doing just that.

Do you know what your average caloric intake was?

Rarely under 1800, some days well over 3,500. I never kept track I just ate when I was hungry.

All meat, 75-85% fat since Jan/09.

I lost the first 55lbs in 5.5 months eating under 20 grams of carbs and high fat, the rest was zero carbs and I lost it in 8 another months.

I never had that much success with Atkins by the book WITH exercise. I have been trying to lose this weight with low carb since July 2004. I did lose 49lbs once that way.. it took me 14 months and then 18 months of 'maintenance' trying to climb the carb ladder before gaining it all back with pregnancy. I never got under 161lbs.

I sat on my butt the entire time, as did my hubby. You can see his results in my signature link too.

No exercise either.

I am 45 years old and this is the smallest I have been since I was 18 years old.

That is awesome! Very inspiring. Thanks for the insight. I've gotten so frustrated in the past (and now to a certain extent) because I never seemed to lose weight if I wasn't counting my calories. "Atkins and Taubes said calories don't matter!" I would repeatedly exclaim while standing on my scale that wasn't budging. Again, I might not have given it enough of a chance, or maybe I wasn't as diligent with my carb counting as I thought I was? Hmmmm. Food for thought, so to speak.

I'm not actually dropping my caloric intake too much. Trying to stay around 1600 atm (I've gone much lower recently), but am still feeling hunger at that level. I'm very tall, so my calories should probably be a bit higher than that. I think I might try to count, but not limit my caloric intake this week and see what happens. Just eat when I'm hungry. I'll report back next Friday and let you know what happens .

~Hutchinson...I'm sorry you cannot exercise. But it isn't torture, and isn't masochistic. I absolutely love the way it makes me look and feel. I love getting stronger. I love knowing that if my elevator broke I can climb the 20 flights of stairs up to my condo without passing out. I love knowing that if I had to run for my life, I could. I live in Miami Beach. I NEED to look good. The people at the gym look amazing! There is NO way they would look like that without working out. We run around in bikinis 3/4 of the year. This is an image-obsessed city. I like that. It keeps me on my toes. Maybe someday I'll move to Wisconsin and none of this will matter, but it does now. Just because you don't see the benefits of exercise doesn't mean you have to hate on those of us who do. You expect people to take what you say as gospel, but refuse to keep an open mind about anybody else's opinions. I appreciate the advice thus far. I actually did go out and get some of the supplements you recommended. But you don't have to be nasty about something just because you don't agree with it.

Do you eat a lot of curries, or take it in supplement form?

I think it might have been this that ruffled more than a few feathers, including mine:

Well, it's true. If you copied just beyond what you pasted you'll see that I included myself in that category. I am inherently lazy. I will use whatever excuse I can find to NOT do the work and there are many, many people like me. There are so many people who are very very sick. This isn't a joke. People are dying. Exercise does more than just burn calories. It's the one and only thing that keeps my blood pressure down. It doesn't matter how thin I am, my blood pressure is an issue UNLESS I'm exercising. It's just something I have to do. Getting out and moving does absolutely amazing things for someone suffering from depression (which I can imagine most obese people do...I know I certainly did when I was obese). Positive change can't happen in a depressed state of mind...activity fights that. I'm not saying you have to go to the gym for 5 hours a day, but if someone reads "exercise doesn't work for weight loss" then that's all the motivation they'll need to keep themselves on the couch. Again, I've been there. You are obviously a disciplined person, and was able to stick to your diet and achieve your goals. Not everyone has that drive. Sometimes doing something positive for yourself, like going for a walk, is what someone needs to keep their goals. When I move, so does the scale. Period. I lose fat. I have self-confidence. I look great. I have tons of energy. I crave healthy foods. I'm motivated to do what it takes to take care of my body. When I'm sitting on my ass playing video games, or watching t.v all day, I don't have these feelings and I'm terribly depressed. I'm so fucking sick of defending NOT over-eating and the benefits of exercising on this board. I'm unsubscribing to this thread now...I'm so done. I'll take my common sense elsewhere...thanks.

As long as you are enjoying it that fine.
I've nothing against exercise, I agree that if sensibly done it can be extremely healthy but I think the mindless repetitive treadmill plodding and excessive endurance programs probably do more harm than good.
Most professional sportspeople have dreadful inflammatory profiles and very poor immune status.
But having fun is fine and there are many ways of exercise that are both safe and healthy. But most exercise is probably counterproductive and when it comes into the category of self-torture it certainly will be doing more harm than good.
It is that level of painful repetitive exercise beyond the points that hurts that I consider harmful.

So long as it doesn't hurt and you are enjoying having fun, that's absolutely fine.

I do eat a lot of curries and I also like adding turmeric to soup but there is some concern about the bio-availability of the spice turmeric.
I think that where it's a part of the daily diet, as in those people from India/Pakistan who move to the UK or further north and who stay with eating traditional foods with plenty of turmeric (I've been in Asian type cash&carries where you can buy 25kg sacks of turmeric.) But 500g of turmeric spice would probably last me longer than it's sell by date. So I think for most people who only have curry once a week it's probably better to take a highly bio-available Meriva, Phytosome Curcumin supplement such as one of these. However if you are taking it to stop UTI or for arthritis or to re establish lean gut bacteria, I think you may need to take it DAILY and ideally one in the morning and one at night. But if you find it stops you needing to use antibiotics regularly then it will help you build up a good healthy gut flora.

As you probably will need to take it for many months seeking a cheap supply is worthwhile. I use IHERB as the shipping to UK is cheapest for me. Code ~~~~~~ saves $5 for new users. DHL offer the cheapest tax handling fee(£1.25) if you go for buying in bulk and getting bulk discount and paying tax,otherwise keep postage below £17.50 or you may get caught for tax + £8 handling fee from UK Post Office.

I don't have access to my Fitday stuff anymore, (it was six years ago!) but I did do a comparison with my old way of eating; my calories went from 2000 or so to 2500-2700, while my carbs dropped from 350 to 50.

Active, but not exercising in both cases.

THEN I lost weight.

Thank you so much, Hutchinson. The information you provide on this forum is invaluable to me.

Yup. Anytime the word lazy is used it raises my hackles. I come to this forum to not hear the "l" word. I come to this forum because there are people who I can relate to. I am really, really, tired of the "personal responsibility" tirade (in just about everything you talk about in this country). Some things are not your fault. Reading Gary Taubes was the most incredible relief -- it was like years of therapy lifting my own self-doubts and making me feel like I wasn't crazy.

My entire life I have been overweight (even as a child). Other than a few low times, I have never overeaten, and have been very active. Still always been overweight. No one believes you -- not your doctor, not the judgmental people who whisper as you walk by, not your family -- no one. Try living with this your entire life and then wonder why the "lazy" comment makes some people turn purple.

I'm just trying to explain why this is such a big issue for many people here. Exercise is great for some people, and I exercise as well. But it is not a panacea, and many, many people here have finally found success with the diet alone.

There is nothing wrong with promoting exercise, and anyone who can and does want to do it -- that's fine. Just don't go the extra step and use the "l" word for those who don't -- it just causes bad feelings for some of us.