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  #46   ^
Old Tue, May-22-07, 16:34
Bat Spit Bat Spit is offline
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And how do you test? You should really do a "blinded" test when possible. You'd have to drink flavored milk one week and flavored nut milk another week, with enough flavoring that you couldn't tell the difference, and keep a journal.


When I eat dairy any disinterested observer can tell by the number of kleenex I go through and how much sneezing there is.

I know that 'proper' scientific method requires double blind testing, but if someone is prepared to be honest about the response, I think a simple elmination/trial test works just fine.
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  #47   ^
Old Tue, May-22-07, 16:53
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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I don't think you could do a blind study on yourself, much less a double-blind (since the subject and researcher neither know and since you're both the subect and the researcher you have to know one part or the other). But a food journal and an elimination diet should do a lot.
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  #48   ^
Old Tue, May-22-07, 20:03
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Moonrise Moonrise is offline
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I eat cheese because it tastes really good.

I'm working on breaking my egg habit this week. It's been difficult, mainly because eggs are just so convenient, but I'm working on the whole 'have leftovers' thing...

M
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  #49   ^
Old Tue, May-22-07, 21:29
Nancy LC's Avatar
Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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How come you're swearing off eggs?
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  #50   ^
Old Tue, May-22-07, 21:45
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deirdra deirdra is offline
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Wild cow milking contests are common at rodeos. If Rednecks thought of it, why wouldn't Neanderthals?
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  #51   ^
Old Tue, May-22-07, 22:04
kneebrace kneebrace is offline
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I think we might all be missing the point about adults consuming dairy. Until weaning, milk is a perfect food. The only thing that changes with weaning is that until humans began to herd and milk various mammals, we lost the ability to go on producing lactase in adulthood. Heres an example of research showing how quickly something genetically really simple, like not turning the lactase producing machinery off in adulthood, is easy to do in a mere several thousand years.


The New York Times

December 10, 2006
Study Detects Recent Instance of Human Evolution
By NICHOLAS WADE

A surprisingly recent instance of human evolution has been detected among the peoples of East Africa. It is the ability to digest milk in adulthood, conferred by genetic changes that occurred as recently as 3,000 years ago, a team of geneticists has found.

The finding is a striking example of a cultural practice — the raising of dairy cattle — feeding back into the human genome. It also seems to be one of the first instances of convergent human evolution to be documented at the genetic level. Convergent evolution refers to two or more populations acquiring the same trait independently.

Throughout most of human history, the ability to digest lactose, the principal sugar of milk, has been switched off after weaning because there is no further need for the lactase enzyme that breaks the sugar apart. But when cattle were first domesticated 9,000 years ago and people later started to consume their milk as well as their meat, natural selection would have favored anyone with a mutation that kept the lactase gene switched on.

Such a mutation is known to have arisen among an early cattle-raising people, the Funnel Beaker culture, which flourished some 5,000 to 6,000 years ago in north-central Europe. People with a persistently active lactase gene have no problem digesting milk and are said to be lactose tolerant.

Almost all Dutch people and 99 percent of Swedes are lactose-tolerant, but the mutation becomes progressively less common in Europeans who live at increasing distance from the ancient Funnel Beaker region.

Geneticists wondered if the lactose tolerance mutation in Europeans, first identified in 2002, had arisen among pastoral peoples elsewhere. But it seemed to be largely absent from Africa, even though pastoral peoples there generally have some degree of tolerance.

A research team led by Sarah Tishkoff of the University of Maryland has now resolved much of the puzzle. After testing for lactose tolerance and genetic makeup among 43 ethnic groups of East Africa, she and her colleagues have found three new mutations, all independent of each other and of the European mutation, which keep the lactase gene permanently switched on.

The principal mutation, found among Nilo-Saharan-speaking ethnic groups of Kenya and Tanzania, arose 2,700 to 6,800 years ago, according to genetic estimates, Dr. Tishkoff’s group is to report in the journal Nature Genetics on Monday. This fits well with archaeological evidence suggesting that pastoral peoples from the north reached northern Kenya about 4,500 years ago and southern Kenya and Tanzania 3,300 years ago.

Two other mutations were found, among the Beja people of northeastern Sudan and tribes of the same language family, Afro-Asiatic, in northern Kenya.

Genetic evidence shows that the mutations conferred an enormous selective advantage on their owners, enabling them to leave almost 10 times as many descendants as people without them. The mutations have created “one of the strongest genetic signatures of natural selection yet reported in humans,” the researchers write.

The survival advantage was so powerful perhaps because those with the mutations not only gained extra energy from lactose but also, in drought conditions, would have benefited from the water in milk. People who were lactose-intolerant could have risked losing water from diarrhea, Dr. Tishkoff said.

Diane Gifford-Gonzalez, an archaeologist at the University of California, Santa Cruz, said the new findings were “very exciting” because they “showed the speed with which a genetic mutation can be favored under conditions of strong natural selection, demonstrating the possible rate of evolutionary change in humans.”

The genetic data fitted in well, she said, with archaeological and linguistic evidence about the spread of pastoralism in Africa. The first clear evidence of cattle in Africa is from a site 8,000 years old in northwestern Sudan. Cattle there were domesticated independently from two other domestications, in the Near East and the Indus valley of India.

Both Nilo-Saharan speakers in Sudan and their Cushitic-speaking neighbors in the Red Sea hills probably domesticated cattle at the same time, since each has an independent vocabulary for cattle items, said Dr. Christopher Ehret, an expert on African languages and history at the University of California, Los Angeles. Descendants of each group moved southward and would have met again in Kenya, Dr. Ehret said.

Dr. Tishkoff detected lactose tolerance among both Cushitic speakers and Nilo-Saharan groups in Kenya. Cushitic is a branch of Afro-Asiatic, the language family that includes Arabic, Hebrew and ancient Egyptian.

Dr. Jonathan Pritchard, a statistical geneticist at the University of Chicago and the co-author of the new article, said that there were many signals of natural selection in the human genome, but that it was usually hard to know what was being selected for. In this case Dr. Tishkoff had clearly defined the driving force, he said.

The mutations Dr. Tishkoff detected are not in the lactase gene itself but a nearby region of the DNA that controls the activation of the gene. The finding that different ethnic groups in East Africa have different mutations is one instance of their varied evolutionary history and their exposure to many different selective pressures, Dr. Tishkoff said.

“There is a lot of genetic variation between groups in Africa, reflecting the different environments in which they live, from deserts to tropics, and their exposure to very different selective forces,” she said.

People in different regions of the world have evolved independently since dispersing from the ancestral human population in northeast Africa 50,000 years ago, a process that has led to the emergence of different races. But much of this differentiation at the level of DNA may have led to the same physical result.

As Dr. Tishkoff has found in the case of lactose tolerance, evolution may use the different mutations available to it in each population to reach the same goal when each is subjected to the same selective pressure. “I think it’s reasonable to assume this will be a more general paradigm,” Dr. Pritchard said.


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/10/s...cnd-evolve.html

Now remember this is really talking about drinking fresh milk. Cheese and well cultured fermented dairy contain only trace amounts of lactose. If you are allergic to lactose then even these trace amounts could be harmful. But most people aren't allergic to lactose (and casein allergy is even less common). In fact most people of European (or it would seem some African) descent metabolize lactose in adulthood perfectly well, for the aforementioned compelling evolutionary reasons.
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  #52   ^
Old Tue, May-22-07, 22:12
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Hybrid Hybrid is offline
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Kneebrace, your silence on Casein concerns me, other than it being an uncommon alergy. I am going to assume this is based on ignorance, rather than on you actually hiding something.

This page is probably a little over-the-top, but the point is valid. Casein is perhaps the single most addictive food chemical around. Alergic or not, the process of digestion breaks down casein into casomorphine, and that is an opioid molecule.

Please read the "Opiates of the Masses" thread in this forum for more insights into casein addiction.

The "some people can tolerate lactose" thing is sort of like arguing for vegetarianism based on dentition. You're taking a small thing that everyone knows about and leaving out the much larger, more important things that aren't as well known.

Last edited by Hybrid : Tue, May-22-07 at 22:18.
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  #53   ^
Old Tue, May-22-07, 22:39
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kallyn kallyn is offline
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Even if the only thing barring milk from being a good food is the inability to digest lactose, that is still only true of human milk and has nothing to do with the issue of cow/goat/sheep/whatever milk which has completely different properties from our own. I don't see people getting excited over making cheese and yogurt out of breastmilk, though.
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  #54   ^
Old Tue, May-22-07, 22:53
kneebrace kneebrace is offline
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Originally Posted by kallyn
Even if the only thing barring milk from being a good food is the inability to digest lactose, that is still only true of human milk and has nothing to do with the issue of cow/goat/sheep/whatever milk which has completely different properties from our own. I don't see people getting excited over making cheese and yogurt out of breastmilk, though.


Elizabeth, lactose is lactose, in any milk. Of course the lactate of various mammalian species contain different ratios of fats proteins and carbohydrate, not to mention differences in the sizes of fat globules etc. But that is true of any food. You might as well argue that meat is unsuitable for human consumption because it has different sugars fats and proteins to human milk .

Last edited by kneebrace : Wed, May-23-07 at 00:38.
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  #55   ^
Old Tue, May-22-07, 23:26
kneebrace kneebrace is offline
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Oops, oops, oops.

Last edited by kneebrace : Tue, May-22-07 at 23:33.
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  #56   ^
Old Tue, May-22-07, 23:29
kneebrace kneebrace is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hybrid
Kneebrace, your silence on Casein concerns me, other than it being an uncommon alergy. I am going to assume this is based on ignorance, rather than on you actually hiding something.

This page is probably a little over-the-top, but the point is valid. Casein is perhaps the single most addictive food chemical around. Alergic or not, the process of digestion breaks down casein into casomorphine, and that is an opioid molecule.

Please read the "Opiates of the Masses" thread in this forum for more insights into casein addiction.

The "some people can tolerate lactose" thing is sort of like arguing for vegetarianism based on dentition. You're taking a small thing that everyone knows about and leaving out the much larger, more important things that aren't as well known.


Hybrid, I have been reading that thread. And 'hiding something'? Well, from the depths of my severely casein opiate addicted shooting gallery.... I guess that leaves the ignorance option. And since you asked for my input, let's see, shall we?


Are you perhaps suggesting that because of the casein/opioid factor, human babies would be better off not drinking truly heroic quantities of milk several times a day until they are weaned. Or just that evolution only intended humans to be casein opioid junkies for the first two years of life , Hybrid, it might help if you read 'Potatoes not Prozac'. Most carbohydrate causes physiological reactions at least analogous to, and sometimes very good examples of, opioid reactions. And casein is certainly not the only protein regularly consumed by all mammals, let alone humans, that produces some amount of opioids during digestion and metabolism. The fact that the opioid element of casein digestion has not proved harmful in any way (quite the contrary, it's probably essential ) to any infant mammal throughout many millions of years of evolution, including all human evolution (not just the paleolithic, right up to the present day), at the most developmentally vulnerable time of their lives, would seem to indicate that these particular opioids are probably a very good thing.

Humans are silly aren't they? Just because pharmacological whizz kids can lab up with any number of diabolically dangerous artificially enhanced and concentrated opioids, the evolutionarily exquisitely designed and dose calibrated ones seem to automatically get a bad rap. A good corollary of this is the natural transfats (found abundantly in, would you believe, dairy foods ) , widely understood, researched, and accepted to be wonderfully healthy components of the human diet.

Hybrid, in trying to come to terms with dairy (fresh milk for those people who continue to produce lactase in adulthood, and low lactose dairy [ie. cheese, cultured etc. for those that didn't get the 'Funnel Beaker' type adaption]) being a sensible element in an optimally healthy dietary approach, you will have to keep reminding yourself that (unlike for example grains, which were never part of the humanoid diet until the neolithic) dairy has always been an essential element - until weaning, because Mum simply had other responsibilities. At which the only transition is that the genetic switch to produce lactase atrophied. Until of course, it became a survival advantage to hang onto it, and the magic mechanism of punctuated equilibrium evolution got down to serious business. I will admit though, that for even more compelling evolutionary macronutrient ratio reasons, keeping carbs very low for life is a good nutritional move, so only eating full fat cheese or whole milk ferments is prudent.

Now I know it will be difficult for the PC Paleo crowd to accept this, so I'm happy to let it rest if it is too irritating. Sacred philosophical cows can have very long lactations, lets face it . But I'm afraid the facts speak for themselves.

Btw. Hybrid, I'm curious at your reference to dentition being used to try to justify vegetarianism as a corollary of the dairy issue. What's the connection/similarity? Suffice it to say that the 'larger, more important thing' you are referring to (I take it you're referring to the casein opioid metabolite) is neither. Besides, human dentition is neither herbivorous or carnivorous. It's omivorous. Anyone who even suggests otherwise ... well, lets leave it at that we probably agree on that one .

Last edited by kneebrace : Wed, May-23-07 at 00:44.
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  #57   ^
Old Wed, May-23-07, 02:21
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Eos Eos is offline
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So sad to see people fervently defending their rooted addictions….
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  #58   ^
Old Wed, May-23-07, 07:17
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ProteusOne ProteusOne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deirdra
Wild cow milking contests are common at rodeos. If Rednecks thought of it, why wouldn't Neanderthals?


I would have to say that the Neanderthals would have the intellectual advantage

I have to agree with hybrid on this one. Aside from the molecular deductions, wild animal suckling seems a long shot. Don't get me wrong. I LOVE cheese, but I feel reasonably able to objectify it.
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  #59   ^
Old Wed, May-23-07, 09:02
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Eos Eos is offline
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Ysabella, sorry, missed your 1st post in all this boom.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ysabella
By this logic, though, meat and human breast milk are both horribly dangerous. However, eating a food containing something like that doesn't cause it to go directly into your brain (in most cases). And that's why these things aren't dangerous.

Hmm…Generalization? The one of the very first tricks in beginner sophists set? I’ll rather stay unprovoked.
To me, it’s clear as daylight, human milk for babies. Bovine is for calves. OK?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ysabella
If they don't have any symptoms to report, why abstain from a food? I'm not sure what you mean here. Should we all go off meat for six weeks, just in case?

First, to see the other side of their state after dairy elimination is done. Otherwise, there are no comparison criteria.
Second, claimed neutral effects are dubious in the long run.
Third, their view could be somewhat distorted due to daily casomorphin intake. It’s like inveterate alcoholic saying alcohol doesn’t harm him at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ysabella
That news story about the neolithic skeletons wasn't well worded - the gene is for lactase persistence. This is just nitpicking on my part - I know what you meant, but I think it's an important detail to have clear.

Yes, I meant the recent study published at the esteemed PNAS org. where the researchers looked at genetic material harvested from northern European Neolithic skeletons dating back some 7000-7500 years and found DNA obtained from these skeletons lacks lactase-persistence-associated allele.
And less than 7000 yrs as compared to near 3 million years of hunting lifestyle is such an infinitesimal value for humans to adapt to this dietary change. By reputable scientific accounts it would take about 50 thousand years for us to be able to use these ‘new’ foods well…if ever.

I personally prefer my children to be perfectly-molded metabolic machine of paleolithic ancestry rather than grow feeble with heavy reliance on addictive lure of grains and dairy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProteusOne
I would have to say that the Neanderthals would have the intellectual advantage

And I would have to say that Neanderthals would thank you for the compliment!

Last edited by Eos : Wed, May-23-07 at 09:10.
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  #60   ^
Old Wed, May-23-07, 09:53
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Nancy LC Nancy LC is offline
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There are some pretty subtle ways that foods can affect you. They can open the membranes that protect your body from stuff, such as the tight junctions in the intestines and the blood/brain barrier. (See Dr. Hadjivasilliou's research in the Gluten File for more info, and read up on Zonulin, the hormone that controls those tight junctions).

It's hard to pin point the subtle damage being done. Is my brain fog caused by lesions on the brain from eating wheat or is my brain fog caused by a thryoid issue, or something else entirely?

Some of us are lucky enough to have pretty clear symptoms (lucky? really?) that would alert a pretty good physician, but other folks don't.

Is flatulence a symptom one should worry about? I used to think not, but I've changed my mind. When I'm farting, I've usually got some level of abnormal stools going along with it that I can usually trace to eating something questionable. Same with the tummy doing it's borborygmus thing after eating.

There's enough questionable things about milk products in my mind, compiled with enough testing data from flatulence, bad stools and grumbling tummy, as well as casein antibodies found in my stool, that milk is something my body doesn't like me having, and it has nothing to do with lactose.

I would love to see more research done into food intolerances, especially ones other than gluten containing grains, but until they're done, I'm going to err on the side of listening to the bod.
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