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  #31   ^
Old Thu, Dec-31-09, 13:21
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BoBoGuy BoBoGuy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hutchinson

Do remember that mice/rats don't have gall bladders and don't have such a well developed astrocyte structure.

Hutch,

Astrocytes are indeed often overlooked from the scientific perspective however from the artistic perspective, it’s difficult to neglect their sheer beauty.

Bo
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  #32   ^
Old Thu, Dec-31-09, 13:37
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BoBoGuy BoBoGuy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyvrn

Don't people generally get pancreatic cancer at a younger age than Alzheimers?

Good question, sad answer.

Based on statistics from 1998-2002, the median age at diagnosis for pancreatic cancer was 72, and the median age at death for pancreatic cancer was 73 years of age. Other pancreatic cancer statistics indicate that the overall five-year relative pancreatic cancer survival rate for 1995-2001 was 4.6 percent.

Bo
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  #33   ^
Old Thu, Dec-31-09, 14:19
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Wyvrn Wyvrn is offline
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Originally Posted by BoBoGuy
I simply do not trust science anymore. Scientific contradictions swirl around every aspect of our diet and it’s relation to our health. Due to this scientific perplexity, perhaps we should attempt to find a dietary middle road such as the Mediterranean diet and simply hope for the best.
It must be especially confusing if you're trying to reconcile the "plant based" (high-profit) marketing by big ag/big drug (which this "study" is likely to be) and health. This may be useful - if someone else is doing it and you're trying to sell them industrial food products and statins. We see it over and over in the dumbing-down of health information e.g. "bad cholesterol" (which as it turns out isn't bad at all in the general sense) as if we common folk must be force-fed what to think.
Quote:
By concentrating on the consumption of a healthy nutrient dense diet and giving our bodies outstanding nutrition so it has the building materials it needs to heal disease and rebuild itself from the inside out, we should be ok.
The "Mediterranean diet" sounds like just the ticket... as it was prior to the advent of widespread agriculture, say 10,000 years or more ago. Rich in natural, nutrient-dense saturated fats, cholesterol, high quality protein with an amino acid profile that closely matches our requirements and low in omega-6 PUFA, fructose, lectins, phytate, xenoestrogen and other anti-nutrients.

The "middle of the road" is a useful analogy if you pick the road that humans spent the last few millions of years of their evolution on, which is the way of the hunter.
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  #34   ^
Old Fri, Jan-01-10, 03:23
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Hutchinson Hutchinson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoBoGuy
Good question, sad answer.

Based on statistics from 1998-2002, the median age at diagnosis for pancreatic cancer was 72, and the median age at death for pancreatic cancer was 73 years of age. Other pancreatic cancer statistics indicate that the overall five-year relative pancreatic cancer survival rate for 1995-2001 was 4.6 percent.

Bo

Alzhiemer's by age

Pancreatic cancer by age.


You only have to look at the 5yr survival rates for Pancreatic cancer to see why the numbers decline for older men and why they are less likely to reach the age of greatest Alzhiemer's risk.

Trying to get the pancreatic cancer by age image to load properly I came across this.

Last edited by Hutchinson : Fri, Jan-01-10 at 03:39.
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  #35   ^
Old Fri, Jan-01-10, 15:53
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BoBoGuy BoBoGuy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyvrn

The "Mediterranean diet" sounds like just the ticket... as it was prior to the advent of widespread agriculture, say 10,000 years or more ago. Rich in natural, nutrient-dense saturated fats, cholesterol, high quality protein with an amino acid profile that closely matches our requirements and low in omega-6 PUFA, fructose, lectins, phytate, xenoestrogen and other anti-nutrients.

The "middle of the road" is a useful analogy if you pick the road that humans spent the last few millions of years of their evolution on, which is the way of the hunter.

Wyvrn,

Might you not agree that the road humans spent the last few millions of years of their evolution on is that of a nunter/gatherer?

I agree that the "Mediterranean diet" or perhaps the "Okinawan diet”, as practiced by the people on the islands of Ryūkyū, might be the preferential “middle of the road” diets for many.

Not suggesting this is ideal but I’ve simply chosen to consume foods with the highest micronutrient richness per calorie that I can find/afford. For the most part, these are colorful vegetables, low glycemic fruits, sprouted grains, eggs, chicken, fish and non Neu5Gc tainted saturated fats.

If anyone finds fault with the above, your advice will be appreciated.

Happy New Year!!

Bo

Last edited by BoBoGuy : Fri, Jan-01-10 at 19:22.
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  #36   ^
Old Mon, Jan-04-10, 16:57
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Wyvrn Wyvrn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoBoGuy
Might you not agree that the road humans spent the last few millions of years of their evolution on is that of a nunter/gatherer?
As far as I can tell from the archeological record, the "gatherer" part was optional, which would make them all hunters.
Quote:
Not suggesting this is ideal but I’ve simply chosen to consume foods with the highest micronutrient richness per calorie that I can find/afford. For the most part, these are colorful vegetables, low glycemic fruits, sprouted grains, eggs, chicken, fish and non Neu5Gc tainted saturated fats.
Oh yes, Neu5Gc, which appears to be replacing saturated fat as the devil in red meat, now that the lipid hypothesis is dead. It's interesting that the loss of the gene to produce Neu5Gc roughly coincided with marked tool-using/hunting capability in pre-humans that would have increased the ability of our ancestors to obtain it regularly in our diets, which tells me it's beneficial to have it in the diet while not needing to produce it endogenously. My guess is big pharma/big food sponsored science has either failed to uncover the benefits (possibly for lack of trying) or is busy spinning the benefits to make it look harmful, like they did with cholesterol.
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  #37   ^
Old Sat, Aug-21-10, 21:41
mathmaniac mathmaniac is offline
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  #38   ^
Old Sun, Aug-22-10, 03:07
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Hutchinson Hutchinson is offline
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Dietary Pattern Associated With Reduced Alzheimer's Disease Risk
Quote:
April 20, 2010 — Individuals who consume a diet rich in nuts, fish, poultry, vegetables, fruits, and olive oil–based salad dressings but low in high-fat dairy products, red meat, organ meats, and butter have a reduced risk for Alzheimer's disease, a new study suggests.

The finding, from a prospective community-based cohort study, warrants further exploration of food combinations in the prevention of this important public health problem, said lead study author Yian Gu, PhD, from the Taub Institute for Research in Alzheimer’s Disease and the Aging Brain, Columbia University, New York City.

"Many studies have looked at the relationship between diet and the risk of Alzheimer's disease, but they have tended to focus on single nutrients or dietary items, such as fruits or vegetables or intake of meats. But the reality is that people eat a variety of foods, so we wanted to determine the best combination that might prevent Alzheimer's," she told Medscape Neurology.

Their results were published online April 12 in the Archives of Neurology. The study will also appear in the June issue of the journal.

Dietary Patterns

Dr. Gu and her colleagues studied a cohort of 2148 elderly subjects 65 years and older living in New York City. All subjects were healthy and free of dementia at study entry. Their dietary habits were obtained via questionnaire, and they were prospectively evaluated with the same standardized neurologic and neuropsychological measures approximately every 1.5 years for an average of 4 years.

The researchers used reduced rank regression to calculate dietary patterns according to their effect on 7 nutrients previously shown in the literature to be related to Alzheimer's disease: saturated fatty acids, monounsaturated fatty acids, ω-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids, ω-6 polyunsaturated fatty acids, vitamin E, vitamin B12, and folate.

During the follow-up, 253 individuals developed Alzheimer’s disease. The study found that one dietary pattern — characterized by higher intakes of salad dressing, nuts, fish, tomatoes, poultry, cruciferous vegetables, fruits, and dark and green leafy vegetables and a lower intake of high-fat dairy products, red meat, organ meat, and butter — was significantly associated with a reduced risk for Alzheimer's disease.

Compared with subjects in the lowest tertile of adherence to this pattern, the Alzheimer’s disease hazard ratio (95% confidence interval) for subjects in the highest tertile was 0.62 (0.43 – 0.89) after multivariable adjustment (P for trend = .01).

The study also found that subjects who were older, less educated, and current smokers tended to be less adherent to the protective diet. Hispanic individuals adhered less than white and black individuals (P = .02), and women tended to adhere more than men (P = .05).

"The dietary pattern that was most protective against Alzheimer’s reflected a diet rich in ω-3 and ω-6 polyunsaturated fatty acids, vitamin E, and folate but poor in saturated fatty acids and vitamin B12," commented Dr. Gu. "The combination of nutrients in this dietary pattern reflects multiple pathways in the development of Alzheimer's disease.

"For example, vitamin B12 and folate are homocysteine-related vitamins that may have an impact on the disease through their ability to lower circulating homocysteine levels," she said. "Vitamin E is a strong antioxidant, and the fatty acids may be linked to dementia and cognitive function through atherosclerosis, thrombosis, or inflammation. Fatty acids may also affect brain development and membrane functioning."

She added that the study has several limitations. "We used a single measurement of the diet, and this might not have captured the long-term dietary habits of the subjects. We also excluded subjects from the final analysis because they were lost to follow-up, and this might have introduced selection bias. We also can't completely rule out the possibility that the reduced risk associated with this protective diet was due to residual confounding."

Further studies are planned, Dr. Gu said. "We cannot say based on this study alone that this type of dietary pattern prevents Alzheimer’s disease, but many studies have consistently shown that fruits and vegetables and unsaturated fatty acids are associated with a lower risk. We want to repeat these findings in different populations and see if they can be confirmed in other studies."

Array of Health Behaviors

Commenting on this study for Medscape Neurology, David Knopman, MD, professor of neurology at the Mayo Clinic and a member of the Mayo Clinic Alzheimer's Disease Research Center in Rochester, Minnesota, said that, despite the study authors' best efforts, it is still not clear whether diet alone makes a difference.

"Dietary habits, which often are lifelong, are certainly part of the array of health behaviors that contribute to better cognitive health in late life. However, diet and other health behaviors are intertwined. Because a healthy diet contributes to better cardiac health, lower weight, lower blood pressure and a lower risk for diabetes, there are many reasons to view the dietary habits described by Dr. Gu and colleagues as beneficial."

The study was supported by federal National Institute on Aging grants. Dr. Gu and Dr. Knopman have disclosed no relevant financial relationships.

Arch Neurol. Published online April 12, 2010.


I've not been able to read the full text of the original paper but I am extremely sceptical about the findings. While I can understand why diets high in olive oil may be helpful I doubt that soy oil based salad dressing's provide the same benefit.
While I'd agree that omega 6 from nuts is probably protective I'd suggest that omega 6 in large amounts in chips, french fries Is not neuroprotectice and is associated with higher risk of Alzheimer's and Parkinsons

As these elderly people were living in New York City they would probably all be vitamin D deficient and the evidence suggests that low vitamin D status increases risk of AD

The findings that a lower intake of high-fat dairy products, red meat, organ meat, and butter was associated with increased risk may reflect the quality of meat and the dairy products available in New York. I'm not at all convinced that meat/dairy from pasture raised outdoor animals with a high omega 3 status untreated with hormones or constant antibiotics used in feed would have the same adverse consequences.
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  #39   ^
Old Sun, Aug-22-10, 12:16
mathmaniac mathmaniac is offline
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20396634

This study suggests that omega-3s may have uses for Alzheimer's patients. But clinical trials failed to demonstrate how omega-3s are effective in treatment. Prevention?

Omega-3s are one of the things that the New York City study focused on.

So, were they using the wrong omega-3s?

A study is always easy to criticize if you imagine they did it the wrong way, or they didn't mention something you think is important. Or you didn't like a conclusion. However, you can do that with any study done anytime for any reason.

Were they picking people living in the wrong place? Then look at the people they used and find the flaw - that they were moles that hardly ever saw sunlight. I am such a mole - I live in the suburbs and not in New York, and you would think I would be acceptable in such a study? How about the fact that I take cod liver oil daily and also supplement with vitamin D? And have a low vitamin D blood value as of last year - which is why I supplement? Do you have to know that about me to judge a study in which I am a participant?

Then reject any study that doesn't carefully vet all the habits of the particpants. Habits from A to Z, including cosmetic use for the women and choice of shaving cream for the men. I'm not kidding. You want to slather yourself with chemicals every day, you think it doesn't have an effect? And be concerned about the building materials of the houses these participants live in. Mold can do strange things. And so on.

Actually, you don't have to know the quality, the brand, the omega-3 content of the food the people eat in this study. If the study is about the omega-3 content, then also consider that the protective diet was rich in omega-6s too!

These scientists listed limitations they saw in their study. They calculated using 'dietary patterns according to their effect on 7 nutrients previously shown in the literature to be related to Alzheimer's disease: saturated fatty acids, monounsaturated fatty acids, ω-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids, ω-6 polyunsaturated fatty acids, vitamin E, vitamin B12, and folate.'

The fact that they did not use vitamin D may limit the value of the study to someone who thinks that is more important. But then, there will be people who think exercise is more important. There will be people who think you have to use organic food - and you could go on and on and on.

For the study they did, these are the results. The results will be fortified or undercut by other studies. I can only wait to see - and I do have an interest. I have a f-i-l who suffered from Alzheimer's.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20182044
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19262590
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15207441
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20395146
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19664276
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16229744
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16940764
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20065132
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20034403
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19845940
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20298171
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20231468
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20209467
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20204773
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20129316
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20061605
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20008141
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19118241
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19896503
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15030967
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20054730

Cognitive Function in elderly:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20410089
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19640963
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19883522
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20502015
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20435794
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20384410
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20550741

'Dementia' (which I think is sometimes misdiagnosed, confusing it with Alzheimer's):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20299544
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20428239
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20413867

If you use the 'collections' capability of NCBI, you already know that this collection I already had (because of my interest in AD and experience with my f-i-l and the disease progression) is but a mere 'drop in the bucket' of the thousands of studies related to AD and what diet or supplements may help.
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  #40   ^
Old Mon, Aug-23-10, 04:33
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Hutchinson Hutchinson is offline
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Quote:
If the study is about the omega-3 content, then also consider that the protective diet was rich in omega-6s too!
It's too easy to mis-interpret observational studies like this.
Denise Minger has ruthlessly exposed a lot of myths derived from the China Study
Whenever we see a study that produces unpredicted results we have to subject those results to particular scrutiny. I've been following Alzheimer's research for a sufficiently long period to view very sceptically any paper suggesting that the inclusion of known pro inflammatory items in the diet is likely to benefit those with Alzheimer's.

Inflammation in the Alzheimer’s disease cascade: culprit or innocent bystander?

I think anyone with a family history of Alzheimer's is best advised to minimize all pro-inflammatory inputs. Bear in mind that both Curcumin and Vitamin D3 work in the brain as anti inflammatory agents and some people with AD respond better to one than the other so it may be an idea (as both are cheap and readily available and lack adverse side effects) to cover both options.

I think anyone waiting to see what Alzheimer's Research is ultimately going to conclude before taking action to reduce their own personal risk is misguided.

There is sufficient evidence to link diabetes with increased incidence of Alzheimer's so any intervention aimed at delaying the onset of diabetes will also reduce the risk of Alzheimer's.

Magnesium
Vitamin D
Omega 3
All have a low risk and are cheap and easily available and the average person will almost certainly NOT get sufficient of any of the above through diet alone. The typical amounts of pro inflammatory omega 6 from industrial seed oil consumption and found in most commercially prepared foods acts to displace omega 3 from it's position in cells and therefore exacerbates the problem.

Last edited by Hutchinson : Mon, Aug-23-10 at 04:58.
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  #41   ^
Old Mon, Aug-23-10, 05:04
mathmaniac mathmaniac is offline
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I've been interested in the studies, too, as you can see. Watching my f-i-l suffer from AD sparked that interest.

Studies produce 'unpredicted results.' If 87% of the people in a study don't develop a disease during the term of the study, and the rest do, are the rest displaying 'unpredicted results'?

My 'best advice' will be to continue to watch the output of the scientific community studying many aspects of this disease.

NCBI allows members (membership is free) to build 'collections' of studies. It's a great resource.
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  #42   ^
Old Mon, Aug-23-10, 06:08
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Hutchinson Hutchinson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mathmaniac
My 'best advice' will be to continue to watch the output of the scientific community studying many aspects of this disease.
But where the cost of taking effective action to reduce risk is cheap and safe, there is nothing to be lost by taking action NOW to reduce future risk.

We need to DELAY the onset of Alzheimer's by taking action NOW.

It's really no good waiting till after you have AD diagnosed to then start trying to reduce progression.

Readers need to take action NOW to delay onset and/or progression to the point of diagnosis.

Where findings suggest that supplementation of magnesium has a therapeutic potential for preventing AD and we know 60% of US adults don't get get the current low RDA for magnesium, it is negligence to suggest we need to wait to correct current magnesium status.

You may personally enjoy enhancing your risk of AD by failing to correct your current magnesium deficiency state but I really don't think that it's a smart idea.

We know that intake of magnesium has declined over the last 100yrs (particularly since mid 1960's) and increasing fructose consumption increases magnesium deficiency

It was people like you who 30 yrs ago when it was first muted that vitamin D prevented MS and reduced the incidence of MS relapse and progression, who recommended waiting for further research before correcting known deficiency states, who are responsible for many people suffering more pain and MS progression than was necessary.

When the consequences of failing to correct Magnesium (or vitamin D Omega 3) deficiency states are so enormous and the cost and risk of correcting those deficiency states are NON EXISTENT then only a fool chooses to run the additional risk of doing nothing and choosing to enjoy a higher risk of AD (or MS or Diabetes) than is necessary.

The sensible readers here will take action now to ensure they err on the side of safety with magnesium intake, Understand what experts in vitamin d regard as vitamin D sufficiency and understand the basics of the omega 6 omega 3 ratio

We don't have to wait until every aspect of the development of MS AD DIABETES is recognised to take effective action now to reduce the risk.

The most important principle underlying medicine is and should be
FIRST DO NO HARM
so where we have good, recent, scientific evidence, that certain deficiency states lead to actual harm to real peoples lives, it is sheer folly, dangerously misguided nonsense and medical negligence to suggest people wait for further research findings, before correcting the most common deficiency states underlying current pro inflammatory states leading to such a huge range of chronic illnesses.
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  #43   ^
Old Mon, Aug-23-10, 07:17
Ron_Mocci Ron_Mocci is offline
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Hutch, what kind of mag. are you taking ? And are you taking it 2 times a day ? I want here but I do not understand it !
thanks Ron*
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  #44   ^
Old Mon, Aug-23-10, 07:44
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Hutchinson Hutchinson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron_Mocci
Hutch, what kind of mag. are you taking ? And are you taking it 2 times a day ? I want here but I do not understand it !
thanks Ron*
magnesium is best absorbed in small amounts with food so ideally if you could get into the habit of taking one magnesium tablet/capsule with each meal that would be ideal but if you forget, any magnesium in the body is more effective than in the bottle. It's just you get more absorption for the same money.

Recipe for magnesium bicarbonate water as this is the most readily absorbed form.
You may want to research the magnesum content of bottled mineral waters. Is Your Bottled Water Killing You? Dr Davis Heartscanblog

Krispin on Magnesium She opts for albion patent minerals
magnesium malate is a good form
Magnesium citrate is better for those who may also want to benefit from the laxative properties
Avoid anything with magnesium oxide as only 4% is bioavailable.

Mrs D has a good thread on Magnesium here

If you have kidney issues you may want to consider transdermal magnesium uptake
Swansons magnesium oil
Most of my examples come from IHERB, Code ~~~~~~ for introductory $5 discount
UK keep orders below £18 or face duty + £8 PO handling charge or go for DHL shipping 2% of duty for handling fee and maximise bulk discounts to offset the customs duty, share your code to increase future discounts.
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Old Mon, Aug-23-10, 07:58
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This is all what the British call "wanking" in my opinion.

The extraordinary increase in Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, and ALS can be traced to the increase in statin use.

Yes, it lowers inflammation. But it also interferes with the most basic cell processes, in every organ of the body.

There are far better ways to reduce inflammation.
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