oh and btw the title of your thread "Trying to Understand" is nothing but a ruse. You are trying to understand nothing. Just trying to stir up a hornet's nest with your smugness and youth which will all too soon fade away. Too bad you wasted it. Saying that you will have to live with your problem admits defeat. Don't give up and keep investigating. Get rid of preconceived notions. If one thing doesn't work, try another, and another, and another. Make wellness your top priority no matter what Atkins, PETA, vegans, meat-lovers proclaim. Try them all. See which one works. Only you can make yourself better and take responsibility for it. Those of us on this board, most of us, have done just that, tried almost everything to get better, to heal, to feel good. Low-carbing has done that for us. Now it's your turn to find what works for you. Putting us down isn't going to help you.

I was never trying to put anyone down. In what way have I? I am sorry if I appear "smug" or if this appear as an attempt to stir things up. Im just giving you my observations; my personal opinions and asking you if you see any truth in them.

So, you personally dont. I wouldnt put you down because of it. Im not trying to insult anyone here.

And how am I stirring something up with my youth? lol I cant exactly make myself older... Im sorry if it offends you that Im young. Im sorry you feel that Ive wasted it. I happen to disagree. I live a very full life, one that I am happy with. I am in love, I do well in school, I have plans to go on to college, I volunteer, have pets, enjoy watching snow fall and sappy romance movies.

My eating disorder is not my life just because it is part of it. Would you say someone who smokes has wasted their life, just because they are not the epitome of health.

Accepting that it will always be a problem is not admitting defeat. It is what allows me to live my life. I have been through recovery programs and I know what it takes- I am not able to do that at this point, and I dont think I ever will be. I know other anorexics in denial about this, and they go through recovery after recovery only to relapse every time and have to start over.

I want more to my life than that. I want a way to live with this disease, because I honestly think that for some, it is a chronic illness. I have found my medium; it lies in allowing myself short periods of restriction followed by times when I am more comfortable with eating. I go with what I am comfortable with, and pfft if that doesnt fall in line with society's standards of health.

I did not come here to preach to you; Im sorry you feel like I am just trying to stir up trouble. I understand my opinions are objectionable, but that doesnt make them less real and worthy of discussion.

I think those who find such great offense to my posts are simply afraid to see the truth in my comparison. I have been nothing but polite here. Its not like Im here cussing up a storm or insulting Atkins... I merely want to share my views and hear yours.

Youd be surprised about that first part, actually. I mean, I seriously doubt you could go to any diet site and find them saying "Yeah, man! Anorexia is the way to go! Woot!" but they might as well, with their suggestions. Ive been to many diet sites where they offer meals plans as low as 500 calories a day!! Anything under 800 calories is considered "starvation level" and anything under 1200 is considered unhealthy. Then there are those ridiculous grapefruit or cabbage diets, which offer no nutritional value.

Ok, Im ranting. Sorry. I have a problem with diet sites that flaunt anorexic eating levels. Im glad this isnt one of them.

Im truly sorry for your illness. Any food addiction is horrible to go through and I wouldnt wish it on anyone.

However, I dont consider your comparison applicable on alll levels of eating. Drug/ food addictions are comparible to some extent, but in the end, you do need to find a healthy moderation with food, while abstaining is whats best with drugs. You cannot tell the recovering bulimic to abstain from food, just because she is addicted. A balance must be found. I stand by my previous statement about moderation. You need food to live; you do not need alcohol.

I understand your position with sugar, because you do not need sugar specifically to live. But I still think that you would find your optimum health when you found moderation of food.

Just out of curiosity, what problem do ED people have with the atkins plan?

Is it because it is the anti-diet way to lose weight, and for ED people the whole point of losing weight is to do a restrictive diet?
Is it because it is looked on as restrictive, yet accepted, and the ED people can't understand why ED isn't accepted but Atkins is?

Hmm just wondering...

It really isn't the same thing.

For many of us who go on atkins, there is no alternative. We have damaged sugar metabolisms, much like a type 2 diabetic. The only option we have is to in some what restrict carbohydrate. Not restricting carbohydrate - even if 100% of our carbs came from "healthy" sources - means hyperinsulinemia & unstable energy levels.

Before atkins I had tons of facial hair & body hair, thinning male-pattern baldness, a complete absence of periods, all over my body was stained with yellow-brown patches of AN, and I had acne all over my face and chest. On top of that, I was prone to hypoglycemia, unstable energy balance, and was gaining weight obscenely fast.

Why did I have these problems? I was experiencing hyperandrogenization caused by hyperinsulinemia...or as it's sometimes called, "PCOS". Within a week of starting atkins my skin cleared up. The hair on my body and face began to get lighter. I had a period. This all happened relatively quickly, so you can't merely attribute it to body fat loss. It was the insulin. By reducing dietary glycemic load I reduced need for insulin. The weight just fell off once I stopped eating so many carbs. The reason I weighed so much was because of carbs & insulin, so when I was able to lower them my body began to rapidly cannibalize its fat.

So like I said, controlling carbs neednt always be a crash diet where one struggles to stay in "ketosis". Ketosis isn't even that important, truth be told. I allow myself 50 net carbs daily and on this amount I have no trouble eating 3 servings of fruit, 5 servings of veggies. Here is my menu for yesterday:

Breakfast:
Half a slice controlled-carb NY cheesecake w/ three nut crust, tablespoon whipped heavy cream & blackberry jam (controlled carb), half of a cup of blackberries, half an ounce of walnuts.
Quarter cup controlled carb cereal with a splash of controlled carb milk.
Cup of green tea sweetened with splenda.

Lunch:
The leftovers from breakfast + a 3 ounce salmon fillet, a tablespoon of dill seasoned dressing for the fish, 2 cups of romaine lettuce, radishes, cucumber, onion, and 1.5 tbsp carb options thousand island dressing, 1/3 a cup asparagus sauteed in evoo w/ onions & garlic & lemon

Dinner:
3.5 ounces of chicken, one and a half cups of broccoli sauteed in bacon oil (emril ) & garlic & onions.

Dessert:
Dannon carb controlled yogurt w/ a third cup raspberries, quarter ounce crushed walnuts, and a quarter cup crushed LC cereal.

Snacks eaten:
Half of a peach
A strawberry dipped in peanut butter
A chicken wing w/ hot sauce
A controlled carb peanut butter cup
Half of a sweetened (sucralose) pickle.


Honestly does that sound so unbalanced? Such veggie & fruit consumption is typical on atkins. I ate 2 cups of salad, .33 cup asparagus, 1.5 cup broccoli, lots of misc veggies (radishes cucumber onions). I ate half a peach, .5 cup blackberries, .33 cup raspberries, a strawberry. I had about 3 servings of dairy. I think that is a pretty normal way to eat. Keep in mind the nutrition in broccoli asparagus and salad is multiple times greater than the nutrition in starchy foods like potatoes and rice, too.

The low sugar veggies and fruits are where all the nutrition is. Rice and pasta are nothing but raw caloric energy. THe only difference between an atkins dieter and a regular dieter is that we replace the high calorie - low nutrition carbs with things like oils, fats, cheeses, and meats. We believe it is better to derive energy from fat than it is carbohydrate, because we all have insulin resistence. Insulin resistence syndrome, as I explained before, causes a whole host of undesirable health consiquences and can be alleviated by reducing dietary glycemic load.

I hope I have helped you understand what controlled carb is all about. It really has nothing in common with an eating disorder, which is a self-destructive behavior in response to a psychological issue. The atkins diet is a way of eating for people with a real, observable, physical problem: insulin resistence.

Thanks.

ItsTheWoo- Thank you so much for your reply; that honestly made things much more clear. I did have some misunderstandings about Atkins and what it requires. I appreciate the insight.

Im glad you found what is healthiest for your health. It sounds like its doing wonders for you, and thats so awesome. By the way, you look absolutely beautiful!

I guess the people Ive come into contact with dont use Atkins appropriately, and its unfair for me to assume all people are like that. I guess Im just identifying with those people who do use Atkins as a type of crash diet, and unfortunately most people dont make the distinction between the healthy Atkins diet, and their own warped version of it.

I still think that many people with warped thinking about food are drawn to Atkins and use it in an unhealthy way. But Im incredibly happy that you're not like this and that you have found something that has increased your health. I suppose I was assuming all Atkin's people are like the ones I have encountered; and I honestly believe many of them were not mentally healthy when it came to food.

Now, to answer your question- why do ED boards dislike Atkins? How to explain this... (1) I think most people on these boards consider themselves experts on food and dietary needs, because they have made food their lifelong hobby. (2) A lot of people see Atkins as restrictive, unnecessary, and unhealthy. (3) This diet is literally shoved in our faces every time we go shopping, out to eat, anything.

Im not saying you should agree with all of these things, but generally, that is what is believed on those boards. And taken together, I guess you can see why it isnt liked.

dear seluratep,

I think the anger you've seen generated here is in response to a variety of issues.

Much of the anger directed towards you is really directed at PETA. We are in a death struggle with PETA/PCRM (see http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2...kins/index.html) and unfortunately you've caught the brunt of that. There is damage here that will take decades to heal, at least.

In addition, despite the sincerity of your posts, your handle and your current goal weight of 80 undermine our perception of you. Many of us would love to be as thin as you despite your ed, but to want to kill yourself at 80 lbs is wretched for us.

I love the food I eat on this diet. I hope things work out well for you on yours.

May I just clarify that I am not a member of PETA? I understand your anger at them, but I didnt come here as an activist, although I love animals dearly. I think I got people riled up because of my screen name, so I suppose people missed the irony of it being spelled backwards. I suppose I should have taken the time to think up another name... but I like this one. I find most of what PETA does to be backwards, although I am all for loving our animals.

I truly am sorry for the misunderstanding, and that you feel targeted by such an extreme organization. I am not a PETA supporter, and I suppose I should have made that clear from the beginning to avoid ruffling feathers.



Hm.. when I signed up here, they asked for me to put a current weight and goal weight- I didnt think to be dishonest. I can see why you would be resentful of me, and all I have to say is that I wish you could see me as my thoughts, actions, and words... not weight.

I hope everything works out for you as well. Thank you for the good wishes.

OK, to expand on this, I just posed your question to an ED board, and these are the replies I have gotten so far.

"The fad is the biggest thing for me. It's like, EVERYBODY'S counting carbs. Restaurant menu's reflect it, beer reflects it, I see special carb-watchers foods everywhere I go. It's disgusting.

Plus, a lot of people don't bother to do it properly - they eat absolutely NO CARBS, and load up on tons of fatty meats and such. A sure-fire way to get yourself a heart attack, I'm sure."

This seems to be the main thing people are saying.. but there are other replies.

"I just saw an ad for a "carb-smart" multivitamin. The whole thing is an ok idea that got out of control, like the"fat-free" thing in the 80's and 90's that led to sugared-up foods and ended up helping nobody."

"It goes against the idea of, "everything in moderation." It forces the body to adhere to a diet that's not natural. And unless you keep up the low-carbing thing for the rest of your life, you gain the weight right back. Dieting in and of itself usually botches one's weight up, but in undertaking a dangerous fad like this, you can really harm your liver, kidneys, and pancreas.

Not to mention, hello: cholesterol!?!?! Despite evidence that atkins eventually raises levels of HDL (the good cholesterol), it also raises the bad stuff too.

And people don't do Atkins right (by eating lean meats and the like). They stuff their body full of bacon, and bunless cheeseburgers."

I hope that answers your questions.

Indeed, weight is a severe emotional issue for many of us here.

Do you ~really~ want to weigh 80 lbs? In some of your other posts you admit to being underweight. Why not adopt a healthier goal weight? 99 lbs, perhaps?

Just as you are trying to understand our diets, I'd like to better grasp your ed.

My lowest weight is 74 lbs. In the back of my head, I really would like to be 73 lbs... then 72, 71, and so on. I have convinced myself that this would not be a good idea, but 80 lbs is manageable for me... for a while.

Weight is an emotional issue with me, as well. Of course I know Im underweight, technically. I still dont feel it. Believe me when I say that you are lucky you can appreciate your weight loss... you see the pictures, see the results and feel a sense of pride. I see them and think "so what? you could still lose some more..." There's no end to an eating disorder.

However, I do not feel I am able to recover. So, I have chosen to live with it. I am 95 lbs now, which is a weight where I can still feel healthy and accomplish things. I am maintaining at the moment. I plan on going down to 80 when I start college, because I will need to in order to have a hold on my emotions. Once I am more at home there, I will most likely gain back up to 95 lbs and stay there for a while.

This is a way of life for me. I have learned to fit it into my life, and now enjoy myself much more than when I was attempting a fruitless recovery.

I hope that helps you to understand where Im coming from. I really am a rational, logical person... its just most people dont agree with how I see things.

>>"You cannot tell the recovering bulimic to abstain from food, just because she is addicted."

...but you can't tell her to have one 1/2 cup serving of Kraft Dinner, either, or 1 oz of M&Ms. Trigger foods are trigger foods and moderation rarely works. Having a small amount is way more difficult than having none at all. Many of us have tried moderation and it fails miserably because it addresses neither screwed-up metabolism nor the addiction factor.

There are many people here recovering from EDs, myself included. Obviously there's a lot of soul-searching and psychological healing that needs to occur, too, but avoiding refined carbs is an excellent way to heal the physical conditions that exacerbated the pathological emotional condition to begin with.

There aren't a lot of obsessive dieters here. Obsession tends to come out of fear of making a mistake more than pathological thinking patterns. Sure, you count carbs to begin with, but it's not rocket science to get your eating plan down pat within a few weeks or months. You learn how to listen to your body again.

I don't even know if I could try to explain to you what it's like to have food obsession pack up and go away. It's probably been your best friend/worst enemy for years. Imagine eating, enjoying your food, and not needing to worry about the scale because you know it's not really going to change much. Imagine what you could do with your brain and your time. To have depression lift. This is the change that low carb eating has brought to those of us who have previously struggled with messed up eating that was caused by, or at least worsened by, sugar and grains. I've done the "normal" diet of "moderate" carbohydrates, and I was stuck on the same old hamster wheel, struggling with hunger, bingeing, starving and weight cycling. LC is the only way for me.

I can see how outsiders, who incorrectly perceive low carbing as an all-you-can-eat bacon binge, consider it restrictive. I see it as finally having sanity and freedom.

So, you believe losing the weight will help you deal with the stress of starting college? I'm just checking to make sure I'm understanding your motivations - most folks I know eat when stressed, rather than starve themselves. When I am really, really upset, I do stop eating, but I haven't been that upset in 23 years.



Hey, I'm an Atheist in a heavily Christian area - NOBODY agrees with me on how I see things, either.

I'm not sure that anyone is really rational - decisions are universally made for emotional reasons, not logical ones. We all make rationalized decisions, not rational decisions.

I can't quite understand what weighing a certain amount has to do with emotional control. I'm sure it makes sense in your mind, you might even think its rational, but it sure doesn't sound rational to me.

If you get REALLY stressed does going to 75 pounds help even more? That's like deciding if I'm stressed out that removing my spleen will help my stress level. They really don't have a whole lot to do with one another.

I think Gotbeer is right. People confuse rationalizing with being rational. Just because you make a conscious decision to do something doesn't mean it was a good decision or even a rational one. I see my sister rationalizing her food behavior all the time, it makes me sad. I wish she'd just own up to the reality that she's just screwing up her diet rather than try to make excuses for it. You can't really make any progress with your own shortcoming until you admit to them and try to improve on them.

I think seluratep logically understands that what she feels she looks like and what she feels she needs to do about it doesn't make sense.

For anorexics, it's all about control. Having a hold over your body by keeping it at a low weight by restricting food is very empowering to them. This is why anorexics often relapse when life gets out of control and hectic... the only way they know how to deal with these problems is through the anorexic behavior. Saying "do you really need to deal with your emotions like that" won't have much of an effect. People think telling an anorexic they aren't fat and don't need to starve themselves will do anything. A lot of people don't understand the disease is fueled not by poor perspective, but by crudely developed emotional coping mechanisms. They project all their feelings onto their body, and then by mastering their body it feels like they are mastering their feelings. Feeling "fat" isn't a feeling. Feeling "fat" is what happens when your body represents the way you feel about some other unrelated issue.

If you are overwhelmed by stress and emotions and haven't learned any other coping strategy other than anorexia, being told not to do it means nothing. It's your only option as you see it. It's like telling an emotional over eater to just eat less. As anyone who's ever had an addiction can testify, once you've gotten used to dealing with things in a certain way it is almost impossible to relearn new coping strategies. Yes, ideally, an anorexic should learn how to deal with the problems and not simply starve themselves at all, but it is very, very hard to do.

On this board we have many emotional eaters - the polarity of emotional restricters (anorexia). How many of us with an emotional eating problem are ever truly rid of the behavior? Very very few. I know I'm not, on occasionally I still eat too much in response to emotions. The best we can really hope for is good control of our disease. Emotional binge eaters are considered successfully rehabilitated if they learn to minimize the frequency of binges. So it is with anorexia... I would say it is progress that seluratep has learned to limit restrictive behavior somewhat.

I think we have a hard time accepting a restrictive eating disorder as "valid" because it goes against what most people's instinctual reactions are with food. Most people tend to over nourish for emotional comfort, and this is very understandable because nourishment is comforting. Because we understand and identify with the psychology of BED, we more readily accept binge eating disorders as valid. Anorexia is a completely foreign emotional need for most, and therefore people have a harder time understanding it is just as emotionally valid and difficult to get control over as binge eating disorder.