DEM, I know exactly how you feel. I started buying only organic meats, dairy, and eggs several years ago and not consuming meat when eating out at restaurants (you just KNOW they get the cheapest, cruelest stuff there is). That led to me just flat out giving up meat. I still feel guilty that I eat dairy (what do they do with the baby cows since we are drinking their food?). Eggs I don't feel too bad about, as long as they are fresh, local, free range, organic. Same for wild fish. I've said so many times that I wish I could eat meat, but I can't really bring myself to do it. There's a lot of nutrition in meat, but I hate the industry, so I just can't do it.

However, there are a lot of realy great vegetarian products out there, making this completely doable.

Hopefully buying organic might help you assuage some of that guilt.

I have been trying to find some of that stuff jnkerr. Can you suggest anything good?

jnkrr, don't feel bad about drinking milk. Milk cows lactate even when they don't have a calf to raise. They are milked 2 times a day once in the morning and then again in the evening and it is a pain free process.

When we lived on the dairy farm and a cow had a calf, that cow would not be milked until the calf was weened.

Wee

DEM, I totally understand what you are saying. I actually belong to PETA but I eat meat because my health requires it. I think you can walk a middle ground. I think we can advocate for humane ranching and farming practices and we must be willing to pay more for the meat we do eat....... As well as the eggs and dairy. Besides food, there are many other ways animals are abused. Bow hunting, lack of neuter spay programs for dogs and cats, the way veal and fois gras is produced, the way kosher meat is butchered, cosmetic and product testing, etc. I think we can be better consumers by demanding better methods of slaughter. They CAN do this humanely but they do not because we the consumers do not demand it or want to pay for it. I try to buy organically produced eggs and stay away from veal. I would pay more for food that is produced humanely and I try to keep myself educated. I don't believe in some things PETA says and does but I do believe they make a point.

Orchid

I totally agree orchidday. The place I do draw the line on my meat eating is veal, lamb, and any other sort of meat in that area. I have never eaten it anyway. I wont eat lobster either. That is one of the cruelest acts a human can commit against an animal...what we do to lobsters. Last I checked nothing likes being boiled alive. But I do advocate, no matter how much I personally hate the whole idea, a decent death for the animals that become food. A large percent of the animals that are stunned end up not being as stunned as thought and are ripped to pieces and totally aware of it. This kind of thing has to stop.

Don't feel guilty. There is Nothing wrong with eating meat. God provided it for us and the bible is full of stories of eating meat. I hunt deer and eat all the meat and don't waste any and if we did not harvest the animals they would be so abundant they would be starving. Here in Pa. they are worried about so many deer that the forests are not regenerating cause the deer are eating all the sapplings so no new trees are growing.

I can't see how you belong to peta and eat meat. I'm sorry but those groups are so nutty in there logic they have no credibily with me.

Hey how would you like to be a vegetable and ripped out by your roots and then cut up and boiled.

I'm not trying to pick a fight but I'm sick of people in peta saying that just because I hunt with gun and bow that I'm a terrible cruel person. If you don't agree then fine don't eat meat but don't try and make me do what your group wants.

You shouldn't be on this diet then.

I am an athiest so the bibles opinion on it doesnt sway me very much. No one can convince me that killing animals, while maybe a nessecary evil, is a good thing. In my opinion in this day and age there is no excuse for fur (we dont live in caves and need fur to keep warm), Ivory(we dont need Ivory to make tools anymore) etc. The way I see hunting is, go out there with your bare hands and come back with the deer, then its fair and I wont have a word to say about it

I don't always aprove of the methods of killing animals. However I also don't aprove of completely not eating them. If everyone stopped eating meat or using animal products, there would be no farms or ranches. We have domesticated animals to a point they need human care. If cows were released into the wild they would over graze, probably not only causing thier extinction, but that of other grazing animals in the area.

Think of the animal rights groups that release minks or sables. The poor animals typically starve or freeze because they can't survive on thier own. While the intentions are noble, the result is often worse for the animal.

I also support controlled deer and elk hunting. Hunting not only provides food, but also helps to control populations so the animals have enough food for the winter. Poaching and uncontrolled hunting, especially if the meat is wasted and left to rot, is wrong in any form.

I was a vegetarian for 10 years. During that time, I put on a load of weight--mostly because I bought into the low-protein dogma that was being spouted by "all the best" nutrition gurus in the 80s and 90s. So I filled up on carbs and guess what, I got really fat.

When I started LC for the first time, back in '99, I discovered within 2 months that I felt much better eating meat. The decision to go carnivorous was absolutely wrenching. I felt as if I was betraying animals, the planet and even my religious beliefs. But in the end, I decided to stick with it, because the health benefits were undeniable...and selfish or not, I simply could not consciously choose to betray my own health and well-being. I'm not saying that everyone should do what I did, or that vegetarianism is unhealthy. This is just my personal experience.

I had to re-learn cooking, because I'd been a veggie all my adult life. Fortunately, I like to cook and I re-framed it as a challenge.

My "natural" preferences run to fresh veggies--lots of salads--and grilled meats. I have no idea why.

I'm not going to step on anyone's beliefs, but judging by what I've seen with my own eyes in THIS area anyway, I don't see a lot of cruelty to farm animals. Chickens and such have brains smaller than a walnut, and I personally don't believe them to be capable of emotion. Of course I can't PROVE it, so whatever a person wants to believe, I can't argue.

I don't necessarily approve of outright cruelty, but living in a rural, farming area, I can tell you that a lot of what "city people" think about ranching and farming is VERY loosely based in reality. Remember, much like the one-sided "Atkins will ruin your kidneys and kill you" stories, the reports of horrendous treatment of animals might JUST be exaggerations and outright fabrications in a lot of cases. I'm not saying it NEVER happens, but I do feel a lot of it is sensationalized. Just my opinion.

I personally know two farms in the area that got turned in and prosecuted for underfeeding their cattle when the CHILDREN were being mistreated and nothing was done! (This has nothing to do with the point really, but I found it interesting...)

All that being said, you are definately entitled to your feelings and opinions. I just hate to see you beat yourself up over it.

I just really disagree with that. If a chicken is smaller then a human, it cant have a brain the size of a human, its all relative. I dont understand how anyone can have a "belief" based on any information of any kind that an animal such as chickens dont have emotion because you cant have any information of that kind. It would seem to me by default it should just be assumed because we have emotion so other living automotive life forms with brains probably do to. A brain is a brain is a brain. They all carry out the same functions.

And the whole kids being abused but they get them for underfeeding cattle, those are two extremely different things. When you are accused of mistreating your animals that are for buisness it has nothing to do with children. I am not trying to be mean when I say this but you dont see animal cruelty because you choose not to look for it. Go to any farm that is used for slaughter and then tell me that again. And its NOT ok to mistreat animals just because you plan on killing them at some point.

Our emotions are sadness, anger, happiness, etc. All animals show these qualities. We are a wired system just like them. When we get mad its because our brain tells us we are mad, not because we have some special control over that fact, just like animals. When an animal is sitting somewhere and someone, say, hits it. It gets angry(an emotion and a hotwired one, just like ours) and say I give that animal some food and play with him instead, he gets happy and its noticable(just like a human would be) or if I had two dogs that were close and one died, the remaining dog would show mourning for his lost friend, all of these are emotions. Just because some animals have trouble expressing them visualy doesnt mean they dont exist.

So that is why I beat myself up about it. I dont mind that we dont share beliefs but what I said above are mine so I almost like feeling bad about it, it reminds me that I am going agains my principles. But obviously weight loss is worth more then my principles right now

I am a former vegetarian. The MAIN reason that I was a vegetarian was not about cruelty to animals but I found that the longer I went without eating meat, the more I saw them as something NOT to eat. I feel good now about eating meat because it has done wonders for my health. I am not willing to save a chicken, cow or any other animal's life to feel as crappy as I did for the almost 5 years that I was a vegetarian. My health comes first, I am at the top of the food chain, therefore I make the decision. If I felt that torn up about animals, I would never have eaten them again. I am lucky to be able to buy organic free range meat and I am very picky when it comes to eating out. I tend also to gravitate towards a lot of fresh vegetables and my favorite meal is a huge salad topped with grilled chicken or fish.

Dem, I would encourage you to find a vegetarian way to do this diet - why torture yourself? Maybe cut out meat at one meal, or switch to South Beach, I believe they have a veggie version. Atkins (especially induction) might be a little extreme. Life is too short to be that unhappy, and there are plenty of other people and situations that will come along and upset you without you doing it to yourself.

Because I am not anti-meat eating. I cant stop other people from doing it and I cant just jump into a vegetarian diet, its going to take time. I dont get a power feeling when it comes to eating animals though. If you were caught face to face with, lets say, a mountain lion your gonna drop a few rungs on that food chain really fast. The food chain doesnt mean you have to eat as much of something as you can because you are able to. I dont eat large amounts of meat on this diet and I am doing fine. That is good enough for me. When I get to the place I want to be I will ease myself into a vegetarian lifestyle. And atkins does have a vegetarian version that I am looking into. I was just asking if other people had the same feelings I did. People that view animals as completely expendable telling me that I should just find another diet and save myself the grief arnt really what I was looking for because they see things exactly opposite as me and cant understand what I am saying. They are looking at it from their point of view which is they either A)dont care about animals at all or B)they care but they dont understand what my point is because animals are inferior to humans. Or someting along those lines, I dont and cant speak for everyone.

Maybe it would help you, DEM, to clarify to yourself your position on eating meat. I don't think that it has to be an all-or-nothing proposition. Here are my personal thoughts about how I treat animals and/or how they should be treated; maybe something like this, modified to fit your own viewpoint, could be helpful to you. And of course, if you decide to go vegetarian, I certainly wish you well.

Companion animals: I would never intentionally harm my (or anyone else's) pet. If I adopt a pet, I make sure that pet is well-fed, is emotionally nurtured, and receives appropriate medical treatment throughout its life.

Livestock: By this I mean domesticated animals raised for the purpose of generating a product (meat, eggs, milk, hide, etc.). Animals of this type should receive adequate nutrition and medical care while alive. The living conditions should be as good as practically possible. Their deaths should be relatively quick and painless.

Wild animals: I do not hunt, but if I did, I would never hunt for sport, nor would I be purposely wasteful. (That seems to me to take the animal's life a bit too lightly.) I would not lay traps (such as for rodents, etc.) unless not to do so would endanger people and/or I could do so with little detriment to the animals themselves. I would not try to capture or keep a wild animal, except perhaps for rehabilitation. If I severly injured a wild animal (hitting a deer with a car, for instance), I would arrange to have it put it out of its misery.

Some other things you can do that might make this a more palatable choice for you are buying free range chickens, pasture-fed beef, etc. Also, have you considered donating to the Humane Farming Association?

Well my definition of eating meat is as clear as its going to get . I do it but I dont like it. I have done it most of my life and never liked it. Not that I dont like the meat, its the way the meat gets to me and the taking of a life that I dont like. Like I said, I was not looking for an discussion about what animals are ok to kill and which arnt, I got dragged into that one. I was looking to see if their were other people out there thinking the same things as me. I am not hear to try and preach to anyone about not eating more or anything of that nature. I love how people have helped me though by suggesting vegetarian alternatives. I am not here to explain or justifty why I feel the way I do, I just do and it probably wouldent make alot of sense to someone that didnt see this topic like I do anyway. Obviously atkins isnt the best diet for people like me but hey, atkins was right about one thing, it works.