Geez, I wish he had posted that a couple of months ago! Might have saved me a boatload of pain and discomfort. (My poor family, too, lol.)

I forgot to add in my post from last night, I was constipated most of the time (eating practically nothing but fiber!) and developed weird bumps all over my legs and upper arms. There's a discussion on the McD forum right now about constipation and someone recommended adding a little olive oil. The resident McDougall defender condescendingly suggested that the poster's diet was not a good, whole foods diet, which could not cause constipation, and that if something as crazy as olive oil was working, it was only because they believed it would.

Grrrr. I personally had the same problem (which I never had before) and ate exactly according to plan...no refined carbs of any kind, no animal products or oil at all, no sweeteners...nothing but potatoes, sweet potatoes, brown rice, raw and cooked vegetables and fruit. Period.

look at the bright side...you tried mcdougall, so now you'll never waste your time going down that road again =D.

i gained weight faster doing mcdougall than eating SAD foods...

the people that are able to do that plan successfully truly amaze me!

Anti-vegan charlatans share one distinguishing feature with vegans: the complete absence of the word "evolution" from their straining explanations. These people think that what they eat makes them different from each other. Once upon a time, we made fun of the vegans who avoided reconciling their beliefs with the natural sciences, now we have failed-comedians-turned-computer-programmers to remind us that our house is not entirely in order.

"Animals, whom we have made our slaves, we do not like to consider our equals." -- Charles Darwin

I used to read the McDougall board at vegsource just for the amazement factor. I never liked that kind of food so was curious about such different people from myself.

Anyhoo- did you ever try Fuhrman? I noticed a lot of McDougall people went over there, and since Fuhrman minimizes grains and beans in favor of veg, and allows occasional meat/egg and some "good fats," people seemed to do better.

I'll add just one tiny reminder into the fray - it isn't "vegan/vegetarian" vs. "low carb" I'm a vegetarian switching to a low carb lifestyle.

I think the problem in the vegan/meat low fat/low carb debate comes down to feelings of superiority on both sides.

I choose to eat vegetarian because it makes me sad when animals suffer in the food industry. I choose not to be judgemental of others who don't make that same choice. Live and let live I say.

I've known some high-carb vegans that do very well, but they are in the minority. They eat no junk food, no unprocessed sugar, lots of earthy nuts and grains.

When I was a vegan, I got fat. I simply couldn't handle that high of a carb load. I ate too much pasta and not enough whole foods. I'm finding that a low carb vegetarian (not vegan) diet balances my concerns for animals with my concerns for my own health.

After 5 years of gaining on a vegan diet, I can appreciate that while it is possible to be a healthy low-fat vegan, it is certainly VERY HARD. I didn't have it in me to do it without destroying my health, so I had to modify to vegetarian.

Thanks for the thoughts all!

Actually, Fuhrman emphasizes beans because his diet is higher protein than McDougall.

http://www.judgerc.org/Nutrition/ea...Eat%20to%20Live

Note #8 - "Eat a cup of beans every day."

Dr. McDougall's diet is low protein, and is based on rice and potatoes, using beans only minimally.

Personally, I can't touch beans with a ten-foot pole. While on McDougall I made a delicious sweet potato chili that had some black beans thrown in. Twice the recommended amount of Beano did not help with the discomfort and embarrassment that followed that meal.

oh I was thinking a cup of beans is nothing compared to what I see low fat vegans eat. He has people getting their protein from leafy greens as well

I hate to admit it, but I did McDougall once before, way back in '94, I think. I only stayed on it for a month, but it wasn't too bad. I lost eleven pounds and had some digestive discomfort, but nothing terrible. My main problem was that I was cold all the time, maybe because I wasn't eating enough. That experience is probably why I was willing to try it again. The second time around was a whole different ballgame, however.

I deplore factory farming as much as any feeling person. But I do not find my low carb lifestyle conflicts with that; lobbying for better food animal conditions is better, more pro-active, than abstaining from animal products. And has more immediate, and gratifying, results.

Also, many animals are meant to graze... on land that is unsuitable for agriculture. It's not a straight swap, by any means.

In addition, setting up land for agriculture drives out indigenous species, irrigation ruins soil with salts, and aggressive monoculture destroys top soil.

Read a book like The Vegetarian Myth, and discover that eating the way our bodies want; and getting that food in ways our minds find humane and sensible; is actually the best of both worlds.

OMG. I just took a look at the McDougall forum (always wavering, lol) and came upon a thread about what one of the "star McDougallers" eats. She posted a typical menu and it comes out to about 800 calories a day. AND she says she's "gained a few pounds" and has to start watching portion sizes. Ditto another big loser on the thread.

Interestingly, I've seen the same phenomenon with VLC...weight starts to come back.

Maybe the answer lies somewhere in between?

I have a friend who is vegan. She is a marathon runner (completed her Boston Marathon last year). She does not eat dairy, wheat or anything refined. More of raw vegan...

She has terrible IBS and says that her current way of eating (she recently cut out gluten, all wheat and dairy) and says that her IBS has cleared up and she is getting better run times.

I just can't imagine life without a great bbq'd steak.

Have you seen "Escape from Vegan Island," where a low-carb blogger wrote about a McDougall retreat his relatives brought him too? I liked it.

My Escape from Vegan Island

Thanks, Seejay. I like that a lot.

I had to post last night because I was really shocked. Somebody upthread mentioned that many women are finding it hard to lose and/or maintain on McDougall, but I hadn't seen it for myself. It cannot be healthy to live on so few calories, especially when the only fat in your diet is coming from that small amount of fruits and vegetables.

Isn't McDougall a very low fat diet?

Seems to me that part of your problem on McDougall, is that you are simply not eating enough fat.

I got the impression from your posts that you oscillate between an all meat diet which made you feel best and a McDougall diet (which i understand to be vegetarian, low-fat), which you liked best.

I'm not surprised you are having problems. I don't think I could do it either. Even when hungry, I am not especially attracted to meat. I'm fine with meat along side my salad, or vegs, or cooked in a stew, but on its own? Bleh.

I think maybe you need to stop the extremes. Do a sort of addition (as opposed to elimination) diet. Start with meat, which you know you tolerate well, but do not especially like. Add things back gradually and see how you tolerate them. Add food one at a time, and monitor yourself for any reactions. Keep a strict food journal.

The food that are most commonly allergenic are grain containing glutens, milk, eggs, nuts (especially peanuts).

Make sure to eat lots of good fat (satured and mono). I think that your hunger on McDougall was due to the effect of all those carbs on your blood sugar, unmitigated by any fat.
BTW, your symptoms sounds a lot like hypoglycemia.

As for your gut issues, you are obviously intolerant to a few things. Take a lot at this series, it's very interesting

http://perfecthealthdiet.com/?p=235

That is excellent advice, Angeline, and I enjoyed reading the link to The Perfect Health Diet. I think his advice is similar to the advice of Dr. Rosedale's to eat more healthy fats and less protein. Also simliar to Dr K's Optimal Diet. I am anxiously awaiting the release of The Perfect Health Diet this fall.