Hi! I've been lurking.

Meatz - unless you have trouble digesting dairy products, why not eat butter at least? It sounds like you're getting really worked up about doing this "right", and that's not the point. You're not being graded

Eggs can be eaten totally raw - the biotin in the yolk protects against biotin deficiency concerns with the whites (how's that for a scientific explaaination?). But cook them if you want to, I'm sure it was done somewhere at some point.

I eat pretty paleo, about 75% of the time. Some of that is by default, bc I have gluten and dairy intolerances so can't eat them anyway. If you're eating this way even 50% of the time, you're a hell of a lot better off than your average person.

Hi again. I'm going back to perhaps a dead topic here. Jayppers, I read the link, and I found it interesting that he goes to great lengths to list every small possibly toxic chemical in plant foods, but on his recipe page, he includes nuts, which is full of toxins in the raw state. If he were entirely consistent, he would argue against eating anything with even a hint of something noxious in it. Perhaps I should just note that we're on a low carb forum, and defer to that. But that paleo people were omnivorous is not controversial. That they ate lots of plant foods is not controversial. It is so taken for granted that I had trouble finding any articles that explicitly defended it, taking it as an assumption instead. For example, http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t...p-anat-8b.shtml, http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-...imeline%20start, http://www.beyondveg.com/cordain-l/...nivory-1a.shtml. In the last article, arguing for increased carnivory, they still assume a basically omnivorous diet, including plant foods, touting the possility that meat constituted up to 50% of the diet. That seems like a high percentage, but nothing close to the 90-100% some of you are arguing for. This is confirmed by everything I've heard and read about what the paleolithic people ate. Peruse any national geographic article about them, and it is assumed as such.

The article, Jayppers, doesn't even argue on the basis of paleolithic evidence. It's important to me to find out what they actually ate because their diet is not just a good model for a healthy diet, but their diet determined the actual shape our species took. Our species adapted to the available foods, and the same things are what our bodies need today. Perhaps we can never really know, but I try to find out as much as possible and eat accordingly.

I also note that cows are ruminants, so it doesn't seem apt to compare their eating habits to our intake of veggies and grain. Both veggies and grain are far more digestible than grass. I also object to his statement that veggies give people gas and a bloated stomach. Not me or my vegetarian/vegan friends. I have a very flat stomach. That just doesn't chime with me at all, and makes me suspicious of anything he has to say.

Why eat raw veggies? Because they provide live factors, minerals that plants absord directly from the earth, and who knows what else. People acknowledge the medicinal value of plants here. Perhaps there are good reasons for the chemicals in plants. Garlic, for example, helps fight off illnesses. Perhaps those compounds in plants helped the human species ward off parasites and diseases. But they most certainly ate plenty of plant foods. I believe that raw milk is as beneficial as it was seen to be by Price because it provides the first two of these nutrients in plants to humans in lieu of veggies in societies that did not have access to them.

But that's enough out of me about that.

Meatzrus, here is a great link about broth and some great ideas for its preparation. http://www.westonaprice.org/foodfeatures/broth.html.

Capo, I've been thinking about your concern for vitamin D intake. First of all, with summer coming, I just want to say that overdosing on vit. D can be serious. See http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/courses/as625/625vitd.html. It's not a problem if you get it from just sunlight, or just a tsp of cod liver oil daily, but too muc of both can be toxic.

My thoughts about D from the sun is that paleo people probably did not get as much sun as you might think. They took it easy a lot. If you need an example, just look at the chimpanzees. They spend the majority of the day lolling about, and only get off their lazy butts to forage and hunt. They spend a lot of their time in the shade. Paleo people had a much easier life than neolithic people, who had to work . But people I know who are from traditional cultures stay out of the sun during the summer. They yell at their kids if they go out in the mid-day. They let their kids back out during the evening once the sun is partially down. Especially if you have pale skin, which was adapted to increase sun absorption, then I might not worry so much about vit. D intake. I personally wear sun screen because I do expose myself to the summer sun when I do outdoor activities. I worry about skin cancer more than I do about vit. D.

This is still driving me SOOOOO crazy!!! Meat is not all that good, im talking about beef and the likes here, not fish, it has no Vitamins A or D which I thought were very important. Meat organs have these vitamins, but not muscle meat. Im starting to realize just how stupid it is that we are all eating muscle meat only, for those of us that are. Muscle meat was not desired by the tribes and im sick of fooling myself thinking that muscle meat is some godly food. It has no fat soluble vitamins and what makes us think the tribes would go after muscle meat?!?!? Thats the last part of the animal I would go after, I wouldn't go after the part of the animal thats ALL OVER the animal's bodies, I would pick out the organs and eyeballs and face and things that stand out and are only a few in that animal.

I keep bringing back the raw dairy issue because its driving me crazy!! Raw dairy is an excellent source of the fat soluble vitamins A and D, raw milk, cream, butter, all that stuff. Muscle meat on the other hand is absent of these.

Here, i need to bring up more evidence to make this post a little more helpful instead of just ranting...

The Arahs are a tribe in Africa, and according to Weston Price they live almost EXCLUSIVELY on milk, camels milk.



i think these guys again have beautiful structures, and it makes sense because camels milk, or milk in general, is rich in the fat soluble vitamins, so this makes sense. and DAM look at those teeth, those guys have perfect sets of teeth in my opinion. Am i supposed to believe like someone else posted about this earlier in response to me, that the only reason they developed right is not the milk, but because they ate some special diets during pregnancy and all that crap? Puhhh-leazzze, weston himself noted they lived "almost exclusively" on this milk, so i highly doubt its the miniscule amount of "other" foods they live on that is doing them good. Milk is amazing, as can be seen in the development of the Arahs and the Swiss.

I guess the whole point of this post was just to make the point that im frustrated with this WOE but not because im stubborn, because i know some of the things aren't right that we're following, such as the muscle meat idea. Again, i guessi just wanted to say that about the muscle meat and point out the things about dairy, im still crazy frustrated though!!!
so far ive got these down as excellent fat soluble foods, eggs check, raw dairy check, fish (little vitamin A but lots of Vitamin D) check, meat organs (like liver and brains) check and thats about it.

meatzrus, there are tons of fat soluble vitamins and fatty acids, as well as fat found in fatty meat, such as ribs, chuck, brisket. And because they come from an animal, they're highly nutritious anyway.

You might also want to be eating: bone broths and fatty meat. I have noticed the most growth with eating fatty beef/pork ribs, meat, and drinking 5 raw egg yolks in the morning as well as drinking a bowl or two of bone broth a day.

Go with what works for your own body, as the Swiss and Arabs were able to be sustained off of milk and the Swiss ate rye bread with their cheese. Just make sure you include plenty of saturated fat from an animal source, enough protein for your muscle preservation, and zero to no carbs from plants and I bet you'll start growing or notice a positive difference.

I think it's also a good idea to get outside and get as much sunshine as you can. You absorb a lot of Vitamin D from the sun, and that always helps. Also, don't overdo the liver. I think liver, which has a lot of vitamin A in it promotes osteoclast action (osteoclasts are bone cells that break down bone), and you need ample amounts of vitamin D (which prevents osteoclast breakdown and promotes bone growth from osteoblasts) to go with it if you decide to eat a high vitamin-A containing food. One idea is to get out in the sun for a day and then have a liver dinner and see if that helps. Just find what works for you.

meatzrus, I agree that organ meats and fats are valuable, but red muscle meat has the most iron and B12 of any meat so far as I know, so it has other nutrients besides A and D. But organ meats have those too.

You asked a question about raw butter. I think cooking it kills the beneficial live factors in it. It has other nutrients, so it's still good for you, but I'm not sure I would spend extra for raw butter if I was only going to cook with it.

It's so important to go with pastured meat and dairy. I would probably rather be vegetarian than eat conventional meat on a regular basis.

Yeah, I know. Some of his statements are a little out there, and I don't agree with everything, but I do agree with the general premise that we do not need to consume plants. Regarding a bloated stomach, I would simply say be careful! I used to consume a very fiber rich diet full of veggies myself, and at one time before becoming carnivorous was practically fruitarian. I did not use to have bloating of abdominal distension problems, but over time, as the damaging fiber scrapped and damaged my intestines over and over again, they eventually broke down and caused me all kinds of problems - especially bloating. IBS ensued. In Fiber Menace the author relates this to sort of like a switch that gets flipped, where eventually the gut is just like "ENOUGH!" <bloat, cramp, etc.> "The human gut is meant to process liquid chyme," which if you ingest indigestible fibers, especially veggies, this is not entirely possible.

There is nothing from plants foods that cannot be obtained from animal foods, even vitamin C. What are these "live factors" you speak of? Animal flesh and meat is a "live food," if not cooked excessively (rare/med-rare). Animals eat these "live factors" directly from the earth, so in a sense, we carnivores are obtaining them, just indirectly. Raw veggies make me cringe.

Concerns for vitamin D toxicity, IMO, are overblown. As long as you have adequate intake of natural vitamin A, it is very difficult to consume vitamin D3 at toxic levels. I personally consume 10K IUs a day during the winter months when I am not getting any sun exposure. I decrease my intake a lot based on my level of exposure in the Spring and Summer. In Capo's case, she doesn't need to supplement much given her frequent exposure, but the amount she is is not going to harm her at all.

Additionally, I don't believe that light skin is a result of adaptation to increased sun exposure, it is actually the exact opposite. Africans do not have extremely dark complexions because they were not in the sun often - it is because they were constantly exposed to the sun and the increased pigmentation of their skin is a natural buffer for the extremely high levels of sun they were traditionally exposed to. Because african americans are not in the sun as often as their ancestors, they are at an increased risk for developing vitamin D deficiency. Ultimately, one should be fearing a deficiency before they fear toxicity from natural D3.

Here is a more reliable source of information regarding vitamin D toxicity: http://www.vitamindcouncil.com/vitaminDToxicity.shtml

Also, I think sun-screen is very inadvisable, one because of the skin's ability to absorb the toxins that it contains, and two because it is keeping your body from nature's most wonderful source of vitamin D. IMO, it is not excessive sun exposure that leads to skin cancer, it is other dietary deficiencies and dietary no-nos (like too much sugar, etc.) that lead to hyperkeratosis (excellerated skin growth), raised levels of insulin-like growth factors, and sunsequently cancerous formations. I also believe that sun does not drastically age the skin, it is insulin that is primarily to blame (increased free-radical damage).

I gotta disagree with you Lucy about vitamin D, people who live in equatorial regions have much, much higher levels of vit D in their blood than we do and much less of certain diseases than we do. I've got a link somewhere to a really interesting lecture from a researcher about the difference in vit. D in various cultures and how small the risk is of skin cancer versus how large the risk is in D deficiency. Also it isn't as easy to overdose on vit. D (of the proper form) than it is made out to be. And using sunscreen effectively blocks vit. D production.

I'll have to dig it up later, it's on another computer.

I need to correct the name of the tribe I mentioned, it's either Arahs or Arabs, as Weston used both of these so maybe its a mistake on his part.

As for the butter being destroyed by heat thing, Weston in that book says that even grass fed butter that has been pasteurized still has the Factor X intact, it's the grass-fed that is the important thing..
At one end of my mind im starting to think heat really isn't al that bad, only for muscle meats.
There's a study somewhere, or maybe it was infact Weston who studied this, muscle meats are the only meats that get toxic when cooked, when organ meats are exposed to heat no "heterocylic amines" something like that i might've spelled wrong, none of those amines are formed.. No amines either from heated butter, its the grassfed that is important.
To the people that asked if i was getting enough sun, if you were really asking me not sure haahaa, yes i do get lots and lots of sun, been lately getting tons of it.
It's like i know how bad the dairy is for me with some of the issues it causes me but no matter how bad those issues are i always want to go back to drinking it. Always, after drinking the raw milk my tongue is coated in white stuff and it gives Baddd breath, then on top of that it gives me a little more mucous production (sorry for too much information) in my nose.
Other than that I would have no problem drinking it..

Dam I wish our country wasn't so strict with food, we could all be drinking camels milk, raw camels milk which is very nutritious but before its allowed to be here they have to find someway to "super heat and destroy" everything in the milk to "sanitize" it
I wish we had a broader choice of raw milks to drink, raw goats milk, raw camels especially damn maybe i'll move to some country in the Arah region so i can live alongside the beautiful creatures called Camels





im pretty sure oysters are the best source of Vitamin B12, not to mention the best sources of zinc and some other important trace minerals, and the fat soluble vitamins. Shellfish are excellent foods to include in an animal-based diet

I'm pretty certain he meant to say 'Arabs' because in the same sentence of that caption to that picture you posted, Price spelled before 'hefore'..so he probably had a little typo with the h's.


Where did you read that cooking meat is toxic? Because I've been eating cooked meat my whole life and I'm still here..


That's great! I love getting out in the sun as much as possible, and I have olive skin, so my skin just tans. I've already got a little tan going on.

It's like i know how bad the dairy is for me with some of the issues it causes me but no matter how bad those issues are i always want to go back to drinking it. Always, after drinking the raw milk my tongue is coated in white stuff and it gives Baddd breath, then on top of that it gives me a little more mucous production (sorry for too much information) in my nose.
Other than that I would have no problem drinking it..



I'm not sure what would be causing your tongue to get white and you to produce excess mucous. Perhaps you have an allergy to lactose. Or maybe its just all the milk fat gathering on your tongue. If your throat isn't swelling up or getting irritated from drinking the raw milk, I'd say keep drinking it. There's no apparent reason not to.

lol, you can try to live in Saudi Arabia, but it'd be a total change of lifestyles. Did you know they have loud-speakers that chant prayers for Islam five times a day? People literally carry rugs around in the market street and stop what they're doing to pray. If you were really desperate to get some raw goat milk, you could always try raising a small goat farm..I think you have to have certain provisions for that though (like time, money, land, and commitment).

Lucysdream, I agree with Jayppers and NancyLC on the vitamin D topic. Even sitting in the shade out of the sun, you will get a lot of exposure to the sun's rays. So, to say that paleolithic people didn't really get that much sun is kind of absurd. They were outside all day absorbing tons of sunlight (depending on their region). And skin pigmentation does rely on exposure to the sun. A person who gets in the sun more is tanned, naturally because his skin has produced more melanin to protect underlying tissue from the sun's UV rays. This isn't to say the sun is dangerous. You need UV radiation from the sun daily to get your needed vitamin D production.

And about sunscreen being toxic:
Octyomethoxycinnamate (OMC) is a chemical ingredient in 90% of the world’s sunscreen lotions. This chemical may actually kills living cells. (from:http://www.groundwork.org.za/Resources/bath_room.htm)

Some other things you may expose yourself to daily that cause a varying array of serious health effects are:
aspartame (found in chewing gum)--causes mental retardation
benzene (shampoo, acne medicine (benzol peroxide I think)
SLS (shampoo)
Formaldehyde (in shampoo, laundry detergent, dishwashing soap, other commercial soaps)
Fluoride (from the water you bathe in and drink and in most toothpastes/mouthwashes)
Chlorine (from the water you bathe in and drink)
Aluminum (from deodorant)
Lead (from canned food)
..etc

Maybe this interests you a little. You can read all about the toxic chemicals you're exposed to here:
http://www.groundwork.org.za/Resour..._toxic_tour.htm

I respect the majority consensus' opinion about sun exposure, and I have friends who prefer to go without sun screen. My vegetarian friends feel that it's a sufficient source of D. I was at a talk given by Fallon once, and her belief was that it's not a good source of D. I take my cod liver oil, so I feel that I'm set with that. I didn't realize a person gets exposed to the sun in the shade. Are you sure about this, Capo? It's just something I've never heard or thought of before. But I do think there are concerns with sun radiation. People do get sun poison and yes, skin cancer. I do think nutrition has a lot to do with whether someone eventually gets cancer, but it's not a secret that the sun's radiation can directly trigger mutations. I am not overly cautious about such things, but there seems to be an unwarranted denial of the risks here. I don't wear it all the time, but if I know I'm going to be out in the sun a lot, I'll wear it. I use organic sun screen so although it does have chemicals in it, most of the stuff on your list, Capo, are not in it.

From what I've read, the live factors in raw dairy act as catalysts to the minerals in it, so that any pasteurization diminishes the the amount of calcium, etc. that can be absorbed. I still use pasteurized milk in my tea, but raw dairy is illegal in my state, so I have no choice.

Lucy (I hope that is you name ), I partially agree with Fallon in that sun exposure isn't the absolute best source of D, although it is a source. There are MANY factors that play into vitamin D synthesis from sun exposure. Just because one is exposed to the sun does not mean they are sythesising vitamin D unless certain variables/conditions are met. This is exactly why I supplement with, what some may consider, large levels of natural D3 in the Fall and Winter, and lower levels still in the Spring and Summer, because although sunlight exposure is good to gather D, it is not always the best and most reliable method. CLO is great, but I take a more concentrated supplement derived from fish liver oil, as my CLO doesn't have appreciably high levels of D3 that I desire.

I have recently read sources from vitamin D research that states that humans can expend up to 4,000 IUs per day. I am currently supplementing with a higher dosage because of the lagging Winter, and I am working to compensate a very probable past deficiency.

. It is possible to be exposed to UV radiation even if you are not directly in the path of the suns visible light. On cloudy days, if you are on a coastal region, say a beach closer to the equator, many (myself included) will notice a skin tanning/coloring effect even if outdoors for extended periods where there is cloud cover. The clouds do not stop all radiation from reaching the Earth's surface. I could see this applying also to shaded areas, but not as much, as I believe the physical objects casting the shade would do a better job of blocking the sun's rays/radiation. I believe she was simply trying to get across that our paleolithic ancestors got upwards to 10x the amount of sun exposure we modern humans get on average

Oh, and I just wanted to state that going vegetarian before eating supermarket meats, I think one would surely have a shorter existence. Supermarket meats are not as bad as people make them out to be. You know that it is vegetarians and vegans and animal rights pushers that preach the, IMO, complete lies of dirty and contaminated and toxic meats that are sold in supermarkets. I would certainly live off supermarket meat any day, and certainly quite healthfully!

When I visited Walmart today, I met an Ethiopian carnivore! He was the cash register, and my mom told him I was a carnivore. He said carnivores have stronger teeth and are stronger than most people (so true), and that they have parties where they celebrate and eat a lamb. It's part of their culture to pass on to generations how to kill and dress a lamb and turn it into food. He said they use lots of spices on their meat, and his wife loved hot peppers. Also, he said that carnivores have to eat a small amount of fruits and vegetables. So, perhaps eating low glycemic fruits and veggies occasionally is good and natural.

I'm so excited to learn I'm not the only carnivore in the area; I never thought of going to an Ethiopian party locally! He even invited me to go to one sometime. I'm so up for it. I asked him (Matt is his name) if he had ever heard of the book by Weston Price Nutrition and Physical Degeneration and he hadn't, but he emphasized that his kids were stronger and had stronger teeth than most people. Now I want to go to an Ethiopian cookout.

Here's an excellent lecture about Vitamin D: http://www.insinc.com/onlinetv/dire...tvnetplayer.htm

Capo, if you go to a cookout...get recipes!

Meatz, cut the dairy for a week or two and then add it back and see what happens. There's no point in consuming it if it's causing a reaction. I'm going to try goat dairy products in a week or so and see if I can tolerate them better.

Muscle meat doesn't have most iron nor most B12 of all meats. For iron:

liver (reindeer), ~30mg/100g.
blood, ~41.9mg/100g.
heart (cow), ~4mg/100g.
kidney, ~8.4mg/100g.
muscle meat (reindeer, moose, cow), ~6.7mg ~3.5mg ~4.3mg/100g.

Figures for B12 are similar, but blood doesn't have much B12.

By quick looking I didn't see anyone addressing this issue, my apologies if someone already did it.