Is that the best you can do? Really? Because this is a low carb forum, here to support and discuss low carbing. If a big corporation such as WW is anti LC, which they most certainly have been for many years now, we will continue to rubbish them.

As for your comment about religion, I'll just slip my moderator hat on for a minute while I remind you that religious debate is not permitted on this forum. See this thread for more info.

When I eat all those 'free' fruits, I'll remember the point made here that this is a new more 'low-carb' system of points.

I hesitate to even broach the subject of studies. I have spent a lot of time looking at studies because I wanted to find something that showed a 'metabolic' advantage. The studies that actually put people in a controlled environment where their eating is carefully recorded, along with their physical activity: the results are as they have always been with calories. A metabolic chamber is where that is observed and measured. A metabolic ward is where people stay who are only going to be able to eat and be observed eating, with no opportunity to cheat. All the weighing and measuring has resulted in: lots of information, none of which is going to help out this discussion! Sorry!

Two studies? There are easily dozens on metabolism, I'd like to say hundreds but then I'd need a real number to give you.

So the ProPoints system is not more slanted to low carb? Okay. All the more reason not to follow it...

This discussion? Is about Weight Watchers introducing yet another new system of dragging in more customers and making more money counting calories. And this is a low carb forum, where we do not support low fat diets, so we will continue to bag Weight Watchers for this latest money grab.

Thank you, Rosebud!!

'Is that the best you can do? Really? Because this is a low carb forum, here to support and discuss low carbing.'

Yeah. And I do actually 'lower-carb.' And I do actually count calories. And I do actually belong to WW.

I will ALWAYS make a point of adding in what I know to be true from experience. It will piss you off, I have no doubt. What are you going to do? Have a party and not invite me? (starting to sound like high school, much?)

Tell me that I'M THE PROBLEM you have with Weight Watchers - and every other 'sucker' who buys into the whole line of crap, which you know to be that.

Yeah, and:
The whining. The 'How can you say...?' and the 'How dare you...;
attitude and the whole 'I've had it, you just don't listen to reason and you don't make any sense and you're just a stooge for the organization' line of discourse. If I tell you to listen to yourselves, you just get pissed off. If I don't tell you to listen to yourselves, you don't anyway and you're pissed off anyway. What a bunch.

You don't have to tell me this is a low-carb forum. I didn't post this topic in this forum. But I will always participate in a WW discussion because I don't work for the company (thank you, JudyNYC, for that 'dig') and I know the program and have known it off and on for 30 years now. At least.

My suggestion: start a WW group here on the low-carb forum. Do nothing but whine and complain about how unfair WW is, there. Gloat if you can find a negative article about WW. Post all the information that makes you feel you understand the 'science' better and the 'problem' that WW has is that they don't know science.

If the company goes down in flames because of some scandal tomorrow, it will STILL have been the weight loss leader it has been up until that point. God knows, Atkins went bankrupt and it didn't affect the diet. Atkins has been sued and 'the diet' recovered THAT bad publicity. Protein Power is a book and a blog and now Eades and his wife are selling something food-related. More power to 'em. May their company flag fly high.

'This is a low-carb forum and WE do not support low-fat diets'

What a lack of imagination you have. I told you that I lower-carb and I also do WW. Quite erroneously, you've decided to define WW so that I could never do both. Yet I do. MAGIC!

If this were a Zone discussion (quite close to the combination of carbs, protein and fat that I choose to aim for with fitday), you'd not have your 'big corporation' argument but given the tone of discussion, I'm imagining that the collective you I've found here would be flummoxed. What to say about a diet that I could also do AND go to WW and not have a problem? You'd have to start all over again. Yet, absolutely nothing would have changed.

MM, You may not buy the books etc but others do. We have a tv consumer programme in the uk called watchdog, where the ww new points system was complained about specifically because someone had joined, purchased a load of books, possibly cookbooks, points directories etc all with the old points system in (everything she had purchased was laid out on a table), ww were asked for a comment and stated that there would be no reimbursement or exchange. This surely is the best example of how much concern and support they have for their customers. Knowing all the new people/lapsed customers they will bring in, they don't mind losing a few existing customers over the issue.

Lee

Moggsy, you wrote:

'WW is a successful business. Being a successful business doesn't mean you have the right formula for most people to lose weight. It just means you're good at selling memberships, foods, products, etc. NOT that there's anything wrong with that until people defer to you as the premier experts on nutrition just because of that commercial success.'

There are so many things wrong here that just starting to try to explain how weird it sounds as an attack on WW is daunting. For the sheer size of the task. If you're good at selling x, y, and z - if x, y, and z don't work, you will quickly get a reputation for shoddy products or techniques. When you have the right formula, a combination of reputation, quality of your product, and good financial and organizational skill, you WILL succeed.

If you don't have those things, and you keep wondering why you're not succeeding, look to the leader and try to learn what it is they are doing right. One thing 'leaders' in a field do is improve - especially over the past 30 years, I have seen nothing but improvements. I thought the emphasis on fiber was fantastic and timely when it appeared. I wondered why WW didn't emphasize exercise. That emphasis has appeared.

Really, now, WW improved to the point where it has the flexibility I appreciate. I didn't appreciate it as much as when I started low-carbing, to be honest. I have found inflexibility here that I never suspected. I eat a crouton because I now see it for what it is - not an evil food. I don't suffer from celiac disease!

That you see it wrong that people defer to WW as experts because their focus has been dieting, for the past 30-some years is: naive. And calling it 'wrong'? Again, those sour grapes. (There's a remark about free fruit to be inserted here - go to town with that!)

'MM, You may not buy the books etc but others do. We have a tv consumer programme in the uk called watchdog, where the ww new points system was complained about specifically because someone had joined, purchased a load of books, possibly cookbooks, points directories etc all with the old points system in (everything she had purchased was laid out on a table), ww were asked for a comment and stated that there would be no reimbursement or exchange.'

Leemack, I think it's terrible that a WW meeting would lay out books that were out of date! Without specifying that.

If their refusal to refund the money doesn't turn people off, when they are generally an extremely customer-friendly organization, I'd be surprised. Very much. Offhand, I'm wondering if the leader at a meeting didn't point out that the books were outdated and they were selling them because people DO buy them. I would buy an old WW cookbook, and sometimes people do ask for them. The points printed per serving are not an issue. The little slide rule thingie translates everything into points anyway.

People at meetings (and friends of mine who aren't active WW members) have asked me to look for old WW cookbooks for them. I tell them to go to Amazon. They sell used WW books there, as well as any library's support association does at book sales (my other inexpensive source).

I want to point out, as I have before, that there are people who go to WW and do not do the points program. At all. They request the 'old classic' that WW used to have so many years ago. It had two slices of bread, as I recall, for the starch for a day. Or you could choose a medium potato instead. I don't recall all the choices for a starch but they were quite limited. I remember when the words 'brown rice' first started appearing, because the food culture was changing and WW adapted.

Some people don't like so much flexibility and they want the 'classic' WW they felt comfortable with.

However, you need none of these things. You don't have to buy them. You can get all the information you need right online. If you join WW, you can be an online member and use their website, it's true - but it IS an excellent website. And it does have features I don't find elsewhere. However, the plan, the points, the recipes? Are all online - outside of that website. It will take time for the new point plan to be as present on the web as the old point plan is now. The diet is part of WW, the support is the anchor. And my 'diet' has never been discussed in a meeting. Motivational talks are the stuff of the meetings.

All of the above I have said before: The 'classic' plan. I posted the links that show you can get all the information online, free. You know - or should know - that the diet is something that anyone with a pot and a stove and access to a supermarket can do.

But this is what concerns me:
'This surely is the best example of how much concern and support they have for their customers.'
It's not the best example of anything. If WW, as it presents to the public, is such an organization, then it will falter in its successful record of being supportive of dieters. And it will ultimately fail. Then, let it happen just so. I have no problem with that.

Ladies, I have to visit a friend who's waiting for me to deliver her kitty litter and some bread, before it gets late here.

Keep the complaints about the 'bad corporation' and all the other negative stuff you've found to say about WW flying and I'll be back to catch up! The cat will keep my seat warm.

If I buy a toaster and the toaster fails, I blame the company who make the toaster. If a diet fails, either lack of weight loss, inability to stick to the diet, or regain of weight, people blame themselves not the diet company. Any eating plan low enough in calories will usually cause some weight loss in most people while they stick to it. But 98% of diets ultimately fail - howmany times do you hear the dieter say 'well the diet failed me', they don't, they say they failed on their diet. This way places like WW that follow the mainstream dieting eat less, move more message will always be attractive, its been around for ages, people assume it works, a nice supportive environment. But 98% of diets fail. It just depends what you want to spend your money on.

My aunt went to a slimming club and made a friend there. The friend had been about 22 stone (308lbs) overweight and had lost 18 stone (252lbs) at the club. A few months after my aunt started going the friend started to put on weight, the diet had failed her, but that's not how she saw it, she continued going to the club and paying every week, while she put most of the 18 stone back on again, because she felt she had failed, not the diet, and the consultant kept telling her that if she kept attending she'd eventually get back on track. In the meantime they continued collecting her money.

Lee

The books weren't out of date the week before the announcement of the new points system. This is when she purchased them. WW were aware the points sytem would imminently be changing, and so was the leader, but they were happy to sell these products knowing that they would be out of date in a few weeks. A truly caring leader would have said to the woman spending quite a lot of money (and others like her) to wait a few weeks to buy the material. This diet, as you've said had been in testing for some time, but there was little advanced notice of the change for consumers, who are now out of pocket. I realise people don't have to buy the products, but the fact is some do, they shouldn't be misled into buying something soon to be out of date. But it comes down to profits again, and I expect the group leader gets a cut of sales.

Lee

Leemack, you wrote:

'If a diet fails, either lack of weight loss, inability to stick to the diet, or regain of weight, people blame themselves not the diet company.'

Not so. They blame the diet, they blame the diet company. That's what they vocalize (or write) about. However, I agree 1000 percent with you that they do blame themselves. They feel like they couldn't handle something that apparently slimmer people handle well. They feel like something they did was wrong and it made them fat today and they can't do the right thing to correct that, however the right thing is presented.

Do they talk about that? No. Actually, I think it's too painful for them to talk about, and thinking about it is painful enough to begin with.

Any diet you can stick with is going to work, unless it's totally ridiculous and asks you to do something that your doctor could TELL you without hesitation is bad for your health. Taking amphetamines works, for example. Is that a real diet? Would your doctor approve? Once upon a time, they even prescribed pills that were basically amphetamines - man, those were simpler times.

If someone diets and it doesn't work for them, do they say, 'The XYZ failed me'? Actually, from reading this forum, it tends to go like the following: The XYZ diet? Yeah, I tried that, I remember that! I couldn't do it. I hated it. Quit after a month, because it just didn't work for me.' That's fine.

Then, there's the other variation: 'The ABC diet? Yeah, I tried that. I remember that. I did every single thing they said and I was perfect on that diet and I lost maybe a pound. Then nothing. I told them I was doing everything right. After all is said and done, I realized they were really making me gain weight instead of lose weight because I was hungry, no matter what I did. I didn't like the diet and I GAINED weight. They were wrong, they lied about the diet. Even if other dieters were losing weight, it didn't matter. I know it doesn't work.'

But at that point, the person no longer says, 'It doesn't work for ME.' Which then make the 'it doesn't work!' statement close in its message to 'I expected it to work and it doesn't!'

From there, it's 'The diet made my friend have a heart attack' or 'The diet made me gain weight that I could NEVER take off because it screwed up my metabolism so badly that I can't lose weight the way other people do.'

The diet did that!

Here's something to chew on: the first really dramatic case of weight loss I ever encountered was a co-worker who lost over close to 100 pounds on WW. She was short, too, so you finally saw what a petite person she really was. The fact that she was in her 40s and the weight didn't drop off of her - she dieted and lost her weight at a decent pace - tells me that dieting didn't give her a heart attack. She was in good health and her doctor could tell you whether WW 'GAVE her a heart attack' but only her doctor could tell you that.

And if that is the result of a diet that stresses a moderate pace ('the weight stays off longer if you lose it at a moderate pace,' WW will tell you), then that diet is going to be scrutinized in a courtroom because you have a lawsuit. I would never tell that story and intimate that WW was a dangerous diet. I know that it is not.

That 'eat less, move more' message is effective. And attractive. And if 98% of diets fail, that includes all diets. But you just get back on that horse, don't you? I got back on the Atkins horse. Several times. I got back on the WW horse several times. Now I'm on a lower-carb, WW, Zone-ish in its proportions type horse. The money issue isn't relevant - which I realized when I saw how futile it was to get into a discussion of the cars people drive. For example.

If the person you mention (not representative by any means) still didn't get sufficient help at WW, she was free to go to other meetings and confer with leaders at other meetings. WW is flexible that way. She could get support online. She could DO WW online if she lived in an area where there were no WW meetings, if she wanted to utilize their support online. But then, there are free WW support groups on other dieting forums. She did what she wanted to do, diet-wise, of her own free will and no one forced her to go. If she was convinced and hopeful the plan would work, I'm sorry it didn't. I'm sorry she didn't manage to lose weight when she believed what she was doing was right.

That is not unlike the experiences of many people who low-carb. I have gained weight when low-carbing. WW doesn't require you to pass a test to show that you are doing it all right. It is all up to you, it is all your responsibility - and they will continue to take your money as long as you, by your very presence, show that you get some value from the meetings. This is just fine. That's the way it works. If you don't go to meetings and you don't pay, you cease to be a member. Then, there's always all that pesky free stuff on the internet so that you can diet as a WW, use the points plan, or any variation of WW, not pay anything, and where are you? Where you have always been: losing weight, through your own efforts and focus, for yourself and no one else.

With no one collecting a cent from you.

Leemack,

It just occurred to me: at my WW meetings, they have been talking about the new program coming up. We know the date. Yet people still buy the WW-related items and cookbooks, etc. There's not anything there out of the ordinary and people know those things are 'out of date' but read again what I said about how it doesn't matter. It this particular leader (whom you don't know but you've given me the 'if she was truly caring...' test) did something that is going to hurt the WW image, then so be it. That image will take a ding.

I can tell you that the ethics of WW when it comes to having products on site are nothing to complain about. No one makes you buy anything. They sell things cheaper - and that's fine, if you like those things! In fact, you'll be glad you got them cheaper. So?

I'll be back - to my cat-warmed seat - after I drop this stuff off for my friend. She's older, expects me, and she goes to bed earlier than I do, for sure!